Are (non-religious) UK schools Christian in practice?

[threefeethighandrising]

We're right at the beginning of looking at schools, this is all new to me!

I'd love DS to learn about religions (fascinating subject IMO), but I'm a 3rd generation atheist and not at all keen on him actually practicing any kind of religious worship at school.

Having said that, I.m not sure we'd go as far as to pull him out of daily assemblies for example, as I feel uncomfortable about singling him out like that.

The first school prospectus I've looked at says there's a daily act of worship at assembly, and that 50% of their RE teaching is on Christianity.

Is this normal?

Are all non-religious state schools compelled to provide and act of worship?

Are there schools which are atheist in practice, even so?

TIA

Alcofroc if my DC came out of school with either of those stories I would be complaining (as a Christian). In the second case I think the "guest speakers" would have been shut up and escorted from school premises, as homophobic comments are among those most severely punished. I think the Christian primary would be just as strict, as it has had parents of pupils who were homosexual at least in the past, and worked very well with them.

Actually if you put "The Hungry Caterpillar" next to "Jesus died for me" I think small kids will treat them all with the same pinch of salt. At least one of my DD has told me all about her belief in Fairies, and where they live etc. at age 5; at 9 she has put aside that belief.

I can see myself writing quite a lot of letters of complaint in the future if she's made to do anything so repulsive as write prayers in a literacy lesson...

I think you need to get a grip. Repulsive? Really?

The problem is you see your beliefs as correct, rather than a belief system whereas the Christians on this thread have so far had the humility to accept that other people believe differently.

We're talking 1 literacy lesson in maybe, 2 years. Im concerned that you're going to base your choice of primary school on this tiny part. Do you really think your children will value your opinion so little that 1 assembly will change their beliefs? If you bring them up as atheists I imagine that is what they will be.

My class wrote prayers for harvest the other day. I did it from an RE point of view - we are demonstrating our understanding of what Christians believe by writing prayers from their perspective. There was no assumption that the children believe this themselves. The focus was on being grateful for the things we have, no matter where they come from. I dont think anyone was repulsed.

Ineedamedaltoo: HERE HERE! I am French (and an atheist) been living very happily in the UK for 10 years, but now I have 2.5 year old DS and starting to look into schools I am finding it extremely difficult to grasp the whole idea that a school would actually have anything to do with religion. It is incomprehensible to me, and we are considering a move back to France just in time for DS to go to school there. Thing is, the job market is in such a dyer situation there that DS may just have to waste precious school time being taught that God created the earth. God forbid

It's easy to show humility for other people's belief if you are a christian because your own views aren't being discounted every day in a place where worshipping shouldn't even exist. If schools had an 'athiest' assembly every day where the children chanted 'There is no god' then I'm sure christians would feel the same sense of unfairness and unease that athiests do now. Then we'd be the ones that say, 'well just tell your children that's what some people believe' and 'well, it's not harmful, they can make up their own mind when they're older'. Get worshipping out of community schools - everyone knows it doesn't belong there.

There do seem to be a few misunderstandings on this thread about what is taught to children in RE lessons. There is usually a centrally agreed by the LEA syllabus that makes sure that the beliefs of all faith groups are covered but the requirement is that the content is "mostly" Christian. For the benefit of the French, who have brought up in a secular country. In the UK, the church and state are linked historically as the monarch (Queen) is the Head of the church of England so the C of E is the state church. So therefore state schools are required to teach some basic facts about Christianity and other major religions e.g. Hinduism, Buddism, Jewish faith, Islam as well as Christianity. However it is not assumed that the dcs or their families believe or practice any of these faiths. When RE is taught it is usually along the lines of "Christians believe........" or "Muslims believe........." and so on. For example "Christians (and Jews) believe that God created the world", "Christians believe that Jesus died" etc.
I hope this helps.

Haha! An atheist who can't spell 'atheist'!

Ok, I am really not trying to casue an argument here, but I am genuinely interested to find out how some of the staunch (for want of a better word) atheists deal with the beliefs of those around them. Would you, for example, attend a wedding in a church, or the baptism of one of your friends'/relatives' children? Would you allow your DCs to take part if invited?

As a Christian, I had no problems at all in attending my friend's Hindu wedding. I found it fascinating to see the different ceremonies, and really enjoyed it. That may be because, feeling secure in my own beliefs, I can respect other people's.

As I said, I am not trying to pick holes in anyone's arguments - I am just interested.

My kids C of E school (very Christian) never has kids chanting "there is a God". It knows it is full of the Children of: Atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and even more Agnostics or of mixed faith parents.
I also didn't object when they looked at Native American creation myths, as far as I know no children went home saying the World had been created by a water beetle.
The point of teaching about religion is schools is to attempt to give a balanced view of other peoples belief systems. I believe the world would be a better place if people respected and understood other peoples beliefs; so why the Koran needs to be treated with respect, or why the Cow is so sacred.

The posters who talked about living in France - do they have complete separation of church and state as in America or do they still have RE lessons at school? This is a genuine question.

FWIW I would be all for getting rid of the rule about 'worship wholly or mainly Christian in nature' but I'd be very against getting rid of RE. I agree that Christian assemblies serve no real purpose, many schools ignore them and for other schools with largely Muslim, Jewish or Hindu intakes, they must be a pita. But I think this 'us and them' attitude and acting like the bruised minority (on both sides) just turns the argument into a slagging match. Refering to stuff as repulsive or fairy tales makes you seem petty.

Learning about different religions - good.
Being taught 'some people believe....' at school - good.
Being tolerant of other people's beliefs and non-beliefs - good
Visiting places of worship - good, your choice.
Obbserving religious ceremonies e.g. weddings etc - good, your choice.
Being told to put your hands together and chant 'Dear God...' at a community school - bad.
The religiousness of a community school being dependant on the whim of the HT or governing body - bad.
Having Christianity as a default in community schools instead of no religion - bad.
In rural areas, no community schools only CofE schools - bad.
Not getting a place in your village school because of religion - bad.
Children of religious parents having the choice of more state schools than children of non-religious parents - bad.

That's how I think as an atheist.
As a christian you don't have to be half as tolerant as a non-christian to live in this country!
Support dis-establishment of the church today and leave religious worship at the school gate where it belongs!

LeeCoakley I do agree with you on many of the points you have made above.

In particular, I think that faith schools should exist in addition to community schools, and not in their place. A friend of mine's DS was unable to attend their local schol as, for their intake year, the nearest non-denominational, non-sibling place offered was for a child who lived 0.09 miles from the school. Instead, he was offered a place at a school over 3/4 of a mile away (they lived 1/5 of a mile from the CofE school). With the current funding crisis for schools, I just can't see the state taking over the capital funding (let alone buying the church-owned assets) that churches provide.

I do, however, feel that there is a type of trendy and aggressive atheism creeping in, fuelled by the likes of Dawkins, which is particularly intolerant of any religious beliefs. The terms 'fairy tales', 'myth', 'indoctrination' and 'superstition' seem to crop up a lot in threads such as these.

A few years ago Dawkins likened raising a child in a religious environment as being a form of child abuse akin to molestation. It was at that point that I totally lost any last shreds of respect I had for the man as an evolutionary biologist. If that is not a form of intolerance, I don't know what is.

I agree that there are different types of atheists. I suppose in the same way that there are different types of christians. Intolerant, aggressive, 'my way is the only way' and other attributes could be applied to both religious and non-religious people. Likewise tolerance and respect.
Atheism is much more to the fore now, hopefully due in part to the way that religion is dispassionately (if that's the right word) taught in schools. So more atheist viewpoints are being heard. In discussing a religion I don't see why it can't be described in terms of indoctrination or superstition as long as there are no personal attacks involved, after all the atheist viewpoint is as valid as the next person's even though it might sound outrageous to a believer. Personally I would never belittle another person's beliefs (unless they started on me first ) Although I bit my tongue a few months ago when a stauch church-going colleague venomously whispered to another that '...[Lee] shouldn't be allowed on God's earth!' And I'd thought we got on so well!

Absolutely Lee - unfortunately it's usually the extremists of any type who seem to get the most airtime.

I have sat in a fundamentalist church where the preacher said words to the effect that anyone who teaches anything that is against the word of the Bible would be 'the least in the kingdom of heaven' (using the Sermon on the Mount as a hellfire and damnation threat). As a teacher of science who quite happily teaches that the universe is 15 billion years old, I guess that would include me. Needless to say, that is not my type of church.

I think the main danger of these threads is that they turn from 'I don't like my child being forced by the state to take part in activities that go against my belief strucutre' to 'I don't like my child being forced to take part in stupid activities that only a moron would believe in'.

As a staunch atheist with a similarly minded husband, we attended religious weddings with no issues at all. However we do not attend baptisms of children of any denomination or faith as we believe that being baptised should involve a level of consent considering that you cannot be officially 'unbaptised'. Our religious friends and relations will invite us to the after party rather than the ceremony as they accept our point of view.

We would not allow DD to attend child baptisms until she is old enough to decide for herself that she wants to go, but weddings etc are fine.

We expose DD to other religions and beliefs, but instead of expressing our own lack of belief to her, we just lump them in with Greek & Roman myths, Norse legends, Harry Potter - which we feel is where they belong.

We have plenty of religious friends of many persuasions - DH's father is Jewish and his mother is now a CofE vicar for starters.

We don't feel that all beliefs are worthy of respect - some are deeply unpleasant, dangerous or frankly bonkers... 3 year-old DD's school told them the story of Noah last week and DD is now very troubled by why God would send a flood to kill everyone and we've pretty much had to explain that God is pretend, just like Voldemort to stop her being terrified and having nightmares that something like that will happen to us everytime it rains.

The Bible is full of extremely unpleasant acts of violence - as are most religious texts. Generally not a problem, as long as no-one and no school tries to convince my child that they are true.

Crazymum53: I think what is being taught in RE varies greatly. RE is great, I would love for my DS to learn about all the different religions. What I object to are religious assemblies and him being led to believe that God exists and created the earth, and that people should worship him. And sadly it does happen. It is not the place of a school to tell kids what they should and shouldn't believe.

Wellthen: I don't know the situation in America, but in France there is a complete separation between the state and the church. There are no RE lessons in schools, kids are taught about religions as part of history lessons. There are plenty of RE lessons available in local churches/community centres for religious kids/families.

DejaB00 In practice in community schools assemblies are not religious and cover general moral themes such as "being kind to others" etc. Yes there are some assemblies that cover major Christian festivals such as Harvest festival - but the emphasis here is being grateful for the food we have and saying thank you. At dds primary school any songs are not usually hymns and do not have any specific reference to any named God, the children are not encouraged to write or say prayers either.
Yes there is some variation with how different schools deal with RE and assemblies and this is the sort of question that you can ask when you look round possible schools. There are also options for withdrawing your child from assemblies, religious visits and RE lessons but schools do have individual policies on this as well. (Some would insist you withdraw your child from all religious education, some may let your child just miss assemblies). So this is something else that you can ask about when you visit schools.

"In practice in community schools assemblies are not religious and cover general moral themes such as "being kind to others" etc. "

Depends on your community school - at dd's they recite a (Christian) prayer three times a day, assemblies are mainly bible stories, and they have 'bible explorer' sessions in lesson time.

However . . . in principle, I consider this completely outrageous. I wouldn't even bother describing myself as atheist. I have no religion and see no more reason to explain that I don't believe in God / Allah / Hindu gods than I would explain that I don't believe in Thor / Zeus / insert other god of your choice.

In practice . . . I would point out that the current UK practice of compulsory school christianity appears to do an excellent job of immunising children against religiosity in later life. Look at it this way - the USA has complete separation of church and state in theory, but is dominated by religion in practice. We have an established church, but in practice religious belief is dropping like a stone, from 70% I think believing in god (any god) in the 80s down to well under 50% today (british social attitudes survey). And IIRC around 4.5% of people attend a religious service regularly - ie a completely trivial number.

Essentially Britain is becoming an a-religious society, either because of or in spite of the school situation.

Very true, Takver. I don't know anyone converted by school assemblies!

I agree, school assemblies may not actually convert anyone into a religion but I do believe they leave you with a real significant element of doubt. The hymns we sang at school (being a child of the 70's) kind of drip fed God and Jesus into our daily life for 39 weeks of each year for at least seven (of the most impressionable) years - infants and juniors. 'Who built the ark Noah Noah who built the Ark', The Golden cockeral crowed in the morning wake up children welcome the day, God's bright sun is shining forever' , etc etc etc. Not that I dislike singing I might add, singing is great fun. I also agree that learning about all world relgions including no religion (on an equal neutral level) is very important if we wish to bring up level-headed open-minded, friendly human beings.

Unfortunatley, from my very recent personal experience Christianity is not being taught at my son's Non-dom community school on a neutral basis and this is what I find unacceptable. I think a significant factor is that it really does seem down to each individual school to interpret the laws as they see fit, and what may seem fit to one Head may be completely different to another (and also within actual class lessons). I may be wrong but if a Head/teacher is actually relgious themselves, I belive this may rub off on the way they teach Christianiy. My sons's two teachers quite happily joined in with the 'The4Points' arm actions which the local vicar was peddling to All Year 2's at the local church. He was not simply pointing out architectural features of a christian church or indeed teaching about The Holy Bible in an unbiased manner. He repeatedly said that the New Testament was REAL Stories and then sang JEsus loves me, God is Great songs. The children also brought home The4Points wrist bands.

Just another bone of contention........... the vicar who frequents my son's school is know to everyone in school as 'Jeremy'. I do not know of any other teachers/visitors/guests in the school who are referred to by their first name. Call me uber-suspicious but Just seems odd to me?!

I've recently come to realise (taken me a bloomin long time) but Christianity is so truly entrenched into so many areas of socieity it's pretty difficult to escape...............My latest observation is that even Mr Kiplin has been indoctrinated (or perhaps is currently indoctrinating us LOL) with his rather tasty 'Angel Slices'. :)

I now go into schools as a volunteer - nothing to do with religion- and we can all use our first names- it is lovely after having had to had the responsibility and being called Mrs X for years.
Have you been into to discuss it? It seems more religious than your average church school!