Are (non-religious) UK schools Christian in practice?

[threefeethighandrising]

We're right at the beginning of looking at schools, this is all new to me!

I'd love DS to learn about religions (fascinating subject IMO), but I'm a 3rd generation atheist and not at all keen on him actually practicing any kind of religious worship at school.

Having said that, I.m not sure we'd go as far as to pull him out of daily assemblies for example, as I feel uncomfortable about singling him out like that.

The first school prospectus I've looked at says there's a daily act of worship at assembly, and that 50% of their RE teaching is on Christianity.

Is this normal?

Are all non-religious state schools compelled to provide and act of worship?

Are there schools which are atheist in practice, even so?

TIA

Roughly in Scotland there is a requirement for 2 x observance per term pr 6 per school year. This applies to all schools including non-denominational. It can be Christian in nature or if the school community is predominately of a different religion then this can be adopted / reflected in the observance. It can also be titled something vague like Time for Reflection or the like if preferred.

We are atheists DD1 withdrew from observance in p5, DD2 is currently a true and fervent believer and DS1 quite likes the songs. :-)

To be honest I have more of an issue with the use of Christian tradition and folklore being used within the general education of my children. So write a prayer in English for example - why not just a poem. And the inevitable presentation of Christian beliefs as fact by a number of the teachers. I have constant conversations on that one.

There is no possibility of an entirely secular education in any area of the UK but I think Scotland has the lightest touch in main stream schooling.

I'd also like to point out: C of E schools tend to have a lot of children of Atheist parents, as well as parents of other faiths, and I know some where most children come from Muslim homes. The predominance of C of E especially schools is because te Church started to establish free schools about 50 years before the State decided to, so the State just took over some control of the Church's schools. (Last year was the 200th anniversary of the National movement which started Church schools.)
I really would look at the schools before deciding not to send your child there because it is C of E, even if you have that luxury. (One difference of faith schools is often their RE curriculum is set by the Diocese not the LA, and can actually be broader in practise.)

Yes all schools in the UK are supposed to provide a daily Act of worship that is broadly Christian in nature. But in practice most assemblies have general songs rather than religious hymns and talks that cover general moral issues rather than specific religious teaching.
Schools do tend to cover the major Christian festivals particularly Christmas and often harvest festival / Easter. But the latter 2 tend to be more about the seasons of Spring and Autumn. The primary curriculum for my LEA also includes festivals such as Diwali, Eid and Hannukah and there have been visits to the local mosque and Hindu temple as well as the local Parish church.
Most schools do adjust their RE curriculum to meet the needs of families who have different religions or who do not believe in God.
Yes you do have the right to opt out of RE and assemblies but, with the possible exception of school trips that require additional consent, you cannot pick and choose particular areas to opt out of and most children will participate in everything. HTH

I was so alarmed to find out just how much Christian indoctrination still goes on in schools today. Until recently, I too thought Non-denominational meant that the schools were not religious and Im absolutely convinced that so do many other non-religious parents. It's not until I googled the subject that I realise just how oblivious I was. Having read lots of guidelines and laws and forums and carried out hours of research, I'm so frustrated it's unreal.

I thought about writing to the local MP, but it turns out she's infact an Evangelical Christian. Then I thought, ok well how about writing to the Secretary of State for Education - turns out he's a regular WORSHIPER at a C of E Church too and has also provided all UK schools this year with copies of KING JAMES' BIBLES (enscribed with 'presented by the Secretary of State for Education'). There is still so much Church influence throughout the Government and schools that it feels to fight against it would be a huge battle and I already feel defeated before I start. So many wars and battles and deaths have been fought over religion it would take an absolute enormous percentage of the population to bring about change, and not everyone is cut out to fight such political battles.

So what can we do? I know we have the right to exclude our children from religious DAILY WORSHIP and other indoctrinating lessons but is that the answer? I think the more people who are made aware of the situation the better but I'm just not sure of the best route.

Another really annoyed non religious Parent who prefer's science to myth :)

prh47 - Santa Claus is just a corruption of the name of Saint Nicholas, so on the contrary, he existed just as much as Jesus did.

Ineedamedal - I'd write to the MP and Gove anyway - one reason the situation stays the same is the MPs etc think people are happy with the status quo. Or just join the BHA and/or National Secular Society who have been campaigning about this for ages.

Well, the requirement under law has existed for so many years now that the personal religious beliefs of current incumbents of specific posts aren't really relevant. Change hasn't featured in any party's manifesto.

And the Church/State legal position in UK is hardly secret.

Most of the schools ignoring the daily act of Worship are secondary.

If you withdraw your child from assembly but they wish to attend, it becomes a case of negotiation as the child has a right to have their feelings heard.

One King James Bible in a school is hardly indoctrination (or even useful, as DCs school with 2000 pupils got one). The King James bibles is a useful source to understand a lot of British literature, culture and History.

Admittedly I am also very pleased that DCs C of E school also teaches them about Hinduism (probably quite useful in understanding modern British culture), and even Native American creation myths. But it is probably the kind of school most of you would avoid with a barge pole, as it is very openly Christian.

I think the attitude of 'church schools for them, secular for us' is a bit worrying. We all want people to be able to live peacfully alongside each other and accepting that others feel differently is the first step.

If you keep your children away from all 'indoctrination', how will they cope with it in the future? When they meet a boy they like at high school who happens to be Christian or a friend at uni who takes them along to an alpha group?

Being around, disagreeing and discussing with others is how we build our understanding of ourselves. If they understand their own beliefs in the light of the beliefs of others, they are better prepared to make the choice that is right for them.

FWIW I have taught in a church school where my children said 'I'm a Christian but I don't believe in God' so it just goes to show how much actual indoctrination goes on. I've taught children who were passionately atheist and were happy to discuss it with equally passionate Christians. It should never be a problem for a child of any age to say they do or dont think God exists and if an adult in school makes it a problem then you must complain.

To the OP - ask if you could sit in on an assembly, it might put your mind at rest. Lots of schools are very tactful and say things like 'If you dont agree with the prayer, you can think quietly and you dont need to say amen at the end.' Lots of children dont. I dont say amen in school prayers and if children ask me why I explain its because Im not a Christian.

It isnt a church service. Its generally a story with a moral message, a hymn and sometimes a prayer. Unless its 'star of the week' assembly, or sports announcements, or the book people, or peripetetic music teachers or the million other things done in primary school assembly teachers.

primary school assembly. even. Not primary school assembly teachers.

Most of the schools ignoring the daily act of Worship are secondary.

The primary school I work in (which my younger son also attended) must be unusual then. We don't have a daily assembly, and the assemblies we do have have no religious aspect at all, certainly no prayers. It has been like this for the 10 years I have been involved with the school.
We do have a Christmas performance for KS1 which usually tells the story of the Nativity in some way, and KS2 have a Christmas concert with songs and usually readings telling the story. The only children I have known to be withdrawn have been the children of Jehovah's Witnesses, the Muslim and Hindu families happily join in.
We have also had assemblies about Diwali and Eid where children have told everyone about what and how they celebrate.
To those that are surprised that Christianity is presented as the default religion, remember we are not living in a secular country (yet).

My son came home with THE4POINTS paper wrist band which he'd coloured in. www.the4points.com/INT/product.php?products_id=17. Please take a look at the link.

Sorry forgot to say, he's in Year 2 and attends the local non-denominational Community Primary. I feel very uncomfortable about this '4POINTS' business.

Exactly how the school interpret the legal requirement varies quite widely so you may not find it a big problem. I am a devout atheist and we manage fairly well with religious instruction, happy for DS to learn about all teh religions, he is happy to be labelled as a Humanist, I am slightly that arguably the biggest faith of all (none) isn't taught though!

OOps I meant to post this link instead of the first - this one mentions targetting specific groups -

www.the4points.com/INT/about_the4points.php?page=EVA&osCsid=2eb13850c036b2025053b085625f3f60

Ineedamedaltoo, it is worth remembering that the Church of England is the Established church of this country. The CofE is established in law and is actually a law making body (the full details of which are beyond me). This has many implications in law - for example a CofE church cannot refuse to marry an unmarried batchelor/spinster couple who fulfill residency criteria in the parish.

Basically, if you want to live in a society where the church and state are entirely separated, I would suggest you move to France.

Innedamedaltoo I would like to add that I am (as you have probably gathered) a member of the Church of England. I have a strong faith, and my own beliefs as a Christian.

I do, however, find some of the teachings of some evangelical churches somewhat disturbing. I can fully appreciate that an atheist would find the whole thing creepy.

Have a chat to your local CofE vicar about your feelings on the matter. You will find that, on the most part, they are pretty down to earth and open-minded.

There are no non religious schools- they are non denominational. There is very little difference between a faith school and a community one - it depends a lot on the Head.

People don't understand that we are a Christian country until they get DCs to school.

I wasnt aware there was a legal requirement but DC's primary never used be overly preachy and "christian" until they took on a new religious headmaster.

I went to a CofE school and largely enjoyed it but would describe myself as an aethiest, I have never really discussed it with the children but DS1 decided very early he thought the whole religion thing was "Crap". Luckily he moved on to comprehensive this year as in assemblies his refusal to pray was drawing attention and he had been told to "set a good example for the younger children" Whilst I did say "just look at the floor and pretend you are praying" luckily it was never discussed with me as I felt that forcing him to take place in prayer when it was something he felt strongly against was wrong.

DS2 has always been a bit so so about religion (very laid back personality) but has just told me he doesnt believe god created the world "have you ever heard of the Big Bang Mum"

If you read the education acts it is all set out- how schools interpret it depends on the Head.

We take the moral, rather than the Christian stance at school, and chuck in the odd relevant bible story.

I don't really agree with religion being mixed with education at all, particularly after my 14 year old son came home after RE lessons with stories of personal angels (with guest speakers!) and the immorality of homosexuality.

Ineedamedaltoo, sign me up! We're looking at moving house (daughter isn't actually born yet, but planning rather far in advance...) and definitely counting out certain areas depending on availability of non-denominational schools. What's been said on this thread so far really worries me, even though the CofE prevalence doesn't surprise me in the least.

I can see myself writing quite a lot of letters of complaint in the future if she's made to do anything so repulsive as write prayers in a literacy lesson...

Radicalsubstitution: Funny you should mention the France move, I am in the process of planning exactly that! However, because I feel so strongly about this and also I have no idea of how long the transition will take, I will still do as much as possible to express my anguish at the current RE v Religious indoctrination situation, wherever possible. As The Secretary of State For Education felt it appropriate to provide all uk schools with a copy of the bible this year, I feel it is also appropriate that he also provide a copy of Richard Dawkins God Delusion (or similar) - Afterall, There are at least two sides to every story.

I would rather my children keep an open mind about RE until they are much older. Do we really think it appropriate to concern 4/5 year olds with ancient myths which worry them when all they really want to think about is Peppa Pig, Ben & Holly and Thomas the Tank Engine? What on earth are we doing to them? One minute it's the V hungry catapillar, next its Jesus died for me and God is Great, bow your head and say amen?

Ineedamedaltoo - you would be far better off providing schools with a copy of 'The Ancestors Tale' - the last truly brilliant book about evolutionary biology that Dawkins wrote before he lost the plot entirely.

Just as evangelical Christians can put people off with their extremely pushy and often contradictory messages, so Dawkins can come across as condescending, patronising and treating anyone with any type of fatih as if they are stupid.

You have every right to your beliefs. Please respect that other people have a right to theirs without them being dismissed as stupid. I am a Christian, yet I would never belittle my friends' beliefs as Hindus or Muslims.