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Original poster

Scottish accents and phonics

57 replies

suzikettles · 13/12/2011 11:19

If you and your children have a Scottish accent were you a bit Confused by dc's being taught [ar] and [er] as separate sounds?

Ds has just finished the Jolly Phonics sounds and came home with his last sound which was [ar]. The action is something like you're yawning (saying "ah, ah") but we don't pronounce ar like that as we actually use the sound [r] at the ends of words.

Ds isn't fazed at all, and it's not really a big deal, but is there a reason the school didn't just take them out? I guess all the children don't have Scottish accents though.

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Caz10 · 13/12/2011 20:25

I have taught jolly phonics in Scotland, am Scottish myself. Some of the sounds don't quite make sense with our accent (and there are huge regional variations within Scotland, so it is probably different again in other areas). We used to have a little giggle trying to say the words in an English accent then have to skip over it. It was interesting for the more able children to discuss accents, they invariably said it sounded like peppa pig!

Caz10 · 13/12/2011 20:27

Grin my dd1 likes to watch a "filam" which made me realise how pronounced my accent must be!

madwomanintheattic · 13/12/2011 20:34

we watched a lot of filums. but they wouldn't let me make one of the concert. and they've all lost their scottish accents now. Sad

it drove me bonkers though.

not as much as it did when we moved to aldershot though. oh no.

am rofling at peppa pig though! Grin

Eglu · 13/12/2011 20:36

We are in Scotland and ds1 didn't learn arrr sound. I'm not Scottish but am from the NE where we don't say grarss or barth either. I wonder if they miss that out there too.

midnightexpress · 13/12/2011 21:51

LOL at twankle twankle. Grin

DS1's accent is to all intents and purposes English, but he came home with his homework the other day.

'Where's your jotter?' quoth I.
'It's not a jotter, mummy, it's a johrter'

And he will not be told otherwise.

madwomanintheattic · 13/12/2011 21:56

Grin i can hear johrter.

i do miss it. we occasionally have a round of scottish nursery rhymes (where the cow jumps over the mun and the dish ran away with the spun) for a walk down memory lane.

i should add we've escaped hampshire and fetched up in canada. whole other ball game.

apols for lowering the tone of the phonics thread Blush

CumpyGruntWithJinglyBellsOn · 13/12/2011 22:10

madwomanitheattic I originate from Aldershot & live in Glasgow now, stopping in the Greater Manchester area for a few years first.

I can barely remember what I am supposed to sound like. When I listen to my sisters now they sound very posh home counties to me, but when I attempt to speak the same way I feel like I'm putting an accent on.

Sound like I am as well. Grin

Wallace · 13/12/2011 22:16

Our jolly phonics sheet says for british (!) english it is open your mouth wide and say "ah" and for North American it is flap your hands like a seal and say "arr"

I'm guessing we are dong the North American.

Highlander · 13/12/2011 22:23

Just you wait until spellings are practiced at home ina Scottish accent, but said in school in an English accent... Wink

SquirtedPerfumeOverTheTinsel · 13/12/2011 22:34

I live in Northern Ireland. Enough said about my accent! But actually, for here, I have the "posh" accent. Added to that, I have a cut glass English accent of a DH, and northern English in laws who stay a lot.

Need I say that DS struggles with phonics?

sugartongue · 13/12/2011 22:36

I've always wondered how the southerners get on with their phonics, because oop north the kids do c-a-t (ok, works for anyone) and b-a-th
do southerners teach b-aah-th? And how do the poor poppets distinguish between "a" and "aah" when it's all represented with an "a"!!

maizieD · 13/12/2011 23:03

how do the poor poppets distinguish between "a" and "aah" when it's all represented with an "a"

I managed and so did all my peers!

It shook me rigid when I moved to Yorkshire and everyone thought I spoke funny... trying to buy half a pound of butter over the counter in Sheffield was quite an experience...

CecilyP · 13/12/2011 23:08

Our jolly phonics sheet says for british (!) english it is open your mouth wide and say "ah" and for North American it is flap your hands like a seal and say "arr"

Suzy, it sounds as if the teacher has gone for the British English (which really should be the English English) when the North American version might be more appropriate in Scotland for that sound.

habbibu · 14/12/2011 00:13

I thought this too. dd's teacher is Scottish (and v good), and though I kind of wanted to ask her about it, out of curiosity, I decided it probably wasn't that critical, but am glad to see it's not just me a bit thrown by it.

Mind you, I grew up in Liverpool, and was very confused in primary school by the Scottish nun who did not understand how we'd all got one of the sets of homophones she'd set wrong. She didn't realise that "pearl" and "peril" sounded very different to us.

habbibu · 14/12/2011 00:16

Eglu, one thing I've noticed about NE English accents is that though the long a is not there, just like in other N English accents, it is in words like plaster, master and disaster. I've never known why that is.

Eglu · 14/12/2011 08:49

Interesting habbibu. I wouldn't use it in disaster. I would in plaster and master but some people in the NE wouldn't usevit in those words either. It would be pl 'a' ster with a short a like in Scotland

Eglu · 14/12/2011 08:53

Highlander I had fun with ds1 learning to spell some words. He has a Scottish accent so he says pool for pull and then will spell it the way it sounds.

CaurnieBred · 14/12/2011 11:27

I have problems when saying the phonic "i (ih)" and "e (eh)" sounds as in my Scottish accent they both sound the same to DD. DH is from Norf Lahndon and finds it hard to differentiate between any of the phonic sounds (or so he says).

And when going through the alphabet I did catch her copying me the other day and saying "aitch, eye, Jai" rather than "aitch, eye, jay" which I quite liked. I am also winning the battle on the pronunciation of "tortoise" - DH says "tortice" where I say "tortoyze". . .

Also had an issue at school when, getting ready for a PTA event, the HT was confused about why I was holding the classroom door shut "as the "uren" was switched on" and I didn't want any children to get scalded. I meant the urn of course.

Original poster
suzikettles · 14/12/2011 11:40

If I say "bird" "earth" or "mud" the vowel sound is pretty much the same for each (uh), but in my head they're completely different.

My mum's got a similar homophone story from when she was a teacher in London in the 60s. Her example was "ant" and "aunt" which the children all got "wrong".

OP posts:
CecilyP · 14/12/2011 11:44

Reminds me of the Billy Connolly song 'D I V O R C E' where he sings 'S Q U I R M = squuhrum'.

dolfrog · 14/12/2011 15:21

This really demonstrates that most learn to match the sound of a word they use to the whole visual graphic representation of the word. And that phonics is only for those who can use what was called "BBC English" and who have the combined auditory and visual skills to phonetically sound out text in their own everyday language.

CecilyP · 14/12/2011 15:28

No really, dolfrog. If the teacher has much the same accent as the pupils and uses the letter sounds as they occur in real words, there shouldn't be a problem. It is just a peculiarity of one of the Jolly Phonics mnemonics that it doesn't work with a Scottish accent.

DamselInDisarray · 14/12/2011 15:46

ME: For lots of kids in Glasgow hay and stair won't have the same sound in them either. It'll be hai and sterr.

madwomanintheattic · 14/12/2011 15:49

i am dying at the homophone stories. Grin esp pearl and peril. Grin

i love accents.

tabulahrasa · 14/12/2011 16:10

''It'll be hai and sterr.'

it's hai and stayerr, surely?