New phonetics screening tests; testing the use of the method, not the skill of the 6yr old reader surely?

[yummymummyreally]

So why is the Department of Health so obsessed with testing young children's reading "method", rather than their ability to read... Or, or I don't know, maybe checking if they have an interest in stories, are engaged with the written word? But no. The new phonetics screening tests for 6yr olds check if they are specifically decoding words with phonetics, rather than using other methods like "context" for example.... Gggrrrr. I don't understand this!

What do you think? Is method that important?

Indigo, I believe that current research is beginning to shed light on how best to teach children with the sorts of disorders we are talking about. I did not suggest that teachers/schools will be able to solve the associated problems though. You are quite right in saying that it is parents' responsibility to be proactive in helping their children.

I'm not at all convinced kids with these disorders need to be taught differently. That's totally not my experience.

Sure, it's based on a small sample. But it's still a valid sample. Still suggests that not all kids with 'disorders' need to be taught differently.

A few years ago I would have loved to believe in the fantasy you are proposing - that school could teach DD if only they knew more. It's a fantasy and a dangerous fantasy. Because if I had believed it, I wouldn't have got her the help she really needed.

Indigo, they need to be taught differently because they learn differently but until "we" understand how they learn then we will continue to offer children like your DC a sub-optimal learning environment, unfortunately.

I believe that current research is beginning to shed light on how best to teach children with the sorts of disorders we are talking about.

I wonder if you could give me an example of how some research has shown how a specific 'disorder' (of your choice) should be taught. I keep hearing statements like this, but never backed up with concrete examples.

Good teaching for a child with SEN is good teaching for EVERY child!

pickled - my DS, who has a dx of ASD, is also top of the school in Maths, Science, Reading and History. In what way is he being taught in a sub-optimal environment? The only way it's sub-optimal is that they normally pitch the work too easy for him (even at the G&T events). Does your list of disorders include being clever?

DD is not in a sub-optimal learning environment either. She is doing brilliantly considering her physical limitations. She's doing fine in maths and science and art and music and speaking. I honestly don't think any school could do any more for her.

I'm waiting for a dx for DS2 too. And again there is certainly nothing sub-optimal about the learning environment for him. He too is on the G&T register, and school can't understand why I have any concerns about him.

until "we" understand how they learn

My children learn the same way everyone else does. Their brain is the same as everyone else's. (As is every other bit of them)

Their label is no more than a shorthand for a list of behaviours.

I really don't like a lot of the implications of what you're saying.

Indigo, by saying 'sub-optimal' I thought I was using your words -

'No-one believes our state education system is optimal do they?'

I started this line of conversation in response to moondog's extremely negative spin on the state of teaching in our schools. I was attempting to defend this statement:

'If children are not learning it's because they have ?special needs? - simple!'

I think there is a case to be made for those children who currently remain 'difficult to teach' because we have yet to work out the best way to teach them. Apparently 1:10 children have short term memory problems which make them almost impervious to the teaching of phonics 'first and fast'. The whole process needs to be slowed down for these children and laboured intensively at just the right pitch for each individual child.

That is an example of what research has shown us maizieD and it is slowly making it's way into the classroom.

mrz whilst I take your point about good teaching for a child with SEN being good teaching for EVERY child, it doesn't factor in pace.

x posts Indigo

Everyone's brain is not the same Indigo, disorder or no disorder. Even something as innocuous as learning a musical instrument or a second language early affects the way the brain develops and it's subsequent ability to process new information.

Do you have much experience of working with children with SEN pickledsiblings?

Poor short term (working) memory is a 'soft' sign for dyslexia:

'In a highly regarded study conducted by Joseph Torgesen, a psychologist at the University of Florida, out of 60 children with severe reading difficulties, only eight had poor short-term memories, while almost as many ? seven ? had very good short-term memories'

All descriptions of dyslexia include many 'soft' signs i.e. they are not based on data that is readily quantifiable or amenable to experimental verification.

It sounds like all you are saying is that some kids learn quicker than others.

Which is nothing to do with whether or not they have a label or disorder.

I guess studies are continuously being done on how to teach more effectively. And I guess they make interesting reading.

But I definitely agree with MoonDog's assertion that putting kids on the SEN register can be used as an excuse as to why they they're not learning.

Your excuse is that we just haven't learnt how to teach 'them' yet - it's still an excuse. You don't need to learn how to teach every kid with DDs label - you only need to learn how to teach DD. And the best way to do that is to experiment on her, trying all the different ways you know and working out which way is the most effective.

Not waiting for some psychologist to do a new study on a thousand dyslexics who aren't DD.

mrz, I don't have any experience of working with young children with dyslexia although I do have some of working with older children. I am beginning to feel a bit out of my depth now in fact so I had better take my leave. It has been an interesting chat and I hope I haven't offended anyone with my idealism .

Indigo, if I were your DD's teacher I would like to think that I would do just as you suggest.

really it doesn't matter whether they are 2 or 20

Apparently 1:10 children have short term memory problems which make them almost impervious to the teaching of phonics 'first and fast'. The whole process needs to be slowed down for these children and laboured intensively at just the right pitch for each individual child.

That is an example of what research has shown us maizieD and it is slowly making it's way into the classroom

Oh, I thought you were going to tell me something I didn't know already...

Pickled - sorry to have a go at you.

I just know how much damage has been done by scientific research suggesting 'dyslexics need multi sensory input' and ' kids with ASD learn best visually.'

I'm fairly sure the level of research you're talking about is testing the wrong thing. Testing what is the best way to teach kids with poor memories - rather than looking at what is the best way to improve kids memories so they don't have poor memories.

My DD did have incredible memory problems, and incredibly slow processing. She doesn't anymore. I've cured her working memory problems and her poor memory.

This was not something school could have ever done.

Indigobell . Love to know how you improved her memory. mine is shocking!

By doing a huge variety of therapies with her. All of which helped a bit. And together the effect has been very impressive.

These are the main thing we've done:

• vision therapy
• auditory integration training
• retained reflex therapy
• omega, zinc & magnesium
• cutting down on sugar and enums
• cutting out gluten
• tinsley house

stuff like that :). Stuff that school could never provide.

www.york.ac.uk/res/wml/Classroom%20guide.pdf

www.york.ac.uk/res/wml/Info%20parents%20and%20teachers.html

sorry for all the it's instead of its upthread btw

mrz, Susan Gathercole has done some fabulous work on WM, I went to a lecture of hers last month - I find it all so interesting!

Indigobell - I wouldn't have even known where to start. Do you have any links to help me look into some of those. The inclusion of omega, zinc and magnesium made me smile .. is that why fish is supposed to be good (and I and my DDs hardly eat any!).

It's interesting that you say that school could never provide that. It's a shame though isn't it. That they don't.

Wouldn't it be good if, in 50 years time, schools actually did include this kind of approach. What if, in the future, schools provided schooling tailored to each child? Wouldn't that be a wonderful new world indeed! Ok, so where do we start!?!

Gosh, I didn't start with that. I started with:

Trusting school, then blaming school, then fighting with school and then changing school.

And Toe by toe, dancing bears, acceleread / accelewrite, jungle memory and easy read.

When none of that lot worked, I then started on more alternative things :)

I would recommend Omega to every single person - 20% of our brain is made up of Omega EPA - Vegepa is the best supplement.

Everything else I tried is for kids with ASD / ADHD / Dyspraxia or Dyslexia. Does your DD have those types of problems? Or only memory problems?

For mild memory problems you could start with Jungle Memory. It didn't help my DD at all, but it might help yours.

I don't think it matters where you start. It matters that you don't stop until you've solved the problem. :)

Thanks loads. i will look into those..
:-)