cagey teachers...

[Diddee]

Why do teachers seem so reluctant to reveal how a child is doing compared to the rest of the class? I mean... we all know we just want children to do 'their best' but really it DOES matter how they are doing compared to others their age... surely. Anyone would rather have a child who is achieving their potential and is average rather than achieving their potential but working 2 years under their chronological age...
hoping some teachers out there will help me see something I am missing.

Teachers will often tell you how well children are doing compared to the national average or the expected levels for a child of that age. Certainly the SATs results do this, as do EYFS stages to various extents.

But a teacher will not tell you how your child is doing compared to others in that particular class. Nor should they imo. It isn't relevant.

Knowing if your child is doing thier best, and how they compare to national standards is all the data you need surely?

Because, without going into great detail about the abilities of every child in the class, the information is meaningless.

So the teacher tells you that your child is in the top 5 in the class for reading. Jolly good. Perhaps the class are a particularly able cohort and your child really is doing exceptionally well. Or maybe the class are particularly unacademic and your child is still struggling to achieve the national average. And what are you going to do with the information? Gloat that little Johnny is doing so well? Push him to become top of the class?

It's just pointless, nosy, unhelpful and puts the teacher in a difficult position.

Agree with piprobin.... It's being nosey and teachers shouldn't compare within a class/year. Surely you know how your child is doing? Why do you feel the need to compare with the rest of the class? Bragging rights?

It's not fair on the children you are comparing to! ie it invades their privacy.

The teacher will tell you (or we will :) ) how your child is doing compared to the national expected levels. But a class only has 30 kids, which isn't enough, so you might have a whole class 'above national average' or a whole class 'below'.

So you could be told your child was top table, feel very happy, and not realise that really they are only 'average'.

But if you find out their NC levels, it's very easy to find out if they're on track or not.

I had two classes sequentially who were of very different abilities. If I had told a parent of the first class that their dc was in the top group for reading then they would of probably thought they were doing very well, but probably wouldn't realise that it meant they were at least three years above the average expectation for their age. In the second class if I said the same thing, their parent would of assumed that they were doing very well, but actually they were only achieving what was expected of the average child of their age.

This example is exactly why class position is pretty meaningless. It can lead to parents having false ideas about how well their child is actually doing.

I always tell parents what their child's levels mean in terms of average expectations, and so should other teachers (I know there are some schools that ban giving this sort of information which is wrong in my opinion).

Thanks IndigoBell - good answer and it made sense too. I guess my original question was not very clear - what I should have said was 'compared to others their age' rather than 'the class'. I have just spoken to so many parents recently who have had parents evening and the teacher just says 'they are doing fine', and nothing more. When asked, they the teacher is reluctant to give away information, making the parents feel like they are pushy.

Sometimes it feels like some teachers try to keep the children all at the same level because it is easier - holding them back with, say, reading or not moving them beyond numbers past 10 because that is where the majority of the class are at. I am starting to think it is impossible to cater for each child as an individual in a class of 30... and that makes me doubt some aspects of our education system.

Teachers are held accountable for the progress the children in their class make, in my school we have regular and robust pupil progress meetings with the head teacher for example. I can only speak for the teachers I have worked alongside, but without fail everyone of them has wanted all children in their class are excel and reach their potential. It is why we are in the job! To say it's easier to keep them all at one level is simply not true. It is difficult to challenge 30 children constantly, but I work very hard to ensure that I do so.

I have never met a teacher who wants to keep all their class at the same level. Ever!

I always talk based on national averages rather than the current cohort I have. More useful all round.

They do sometimes, it depends on the school.

Where I work we give the parents two mini reports a term that state the child's average mark and the average mark of the class. They also get a full report at the end of each term that gives their average term mark, the class average term mark, their exam mark and the class average exam mark.

I think it's crazy personally but it's what the parents want and are paying for. Shrug.

If you push the teacher should explain about national expectations and where your child is compared to those: that is the only comparison that really matters. We sometimes found we had to ask outright about those but that information was forthcoming if we made it clear we wanted it.

Otoh I can see why most teacher would not want to make comparisons within the class: the sample is far too small to make it sensible and it encourages a lot of (sometimes ill-natured) speculation about other people's children.

Our school didn't give me a straight answer when I asked what my DS (Y2) is doing in maths and what level he was working at, as I think he might be taught below his level/ability. I did not get to speak to his maths teacher, just the class teacher and the deputy head. I do find that worrying.

I have now worked out for myself where he is and started supporting/teaching him myself. But still, I need to know the school is doing the right thing for my DS, at the moment I don't trust them.

I too think school staff are more vauge about each child then parents would like, but to compare would serve no purpose. What would help is longer and more frquent parent evenings, more details of what is being taught and ideas for games to play at home, etc

I don't care how dd is performing compared to the rest of her class, but I would like to know how she is doing compared to the NC levels and the expected performance for her age/year.

We have asked this very question, specifically - wrt what level dd is working at in her written work - and been told that the school can't tell us this as they only assess it at the end of year 2 and the end of year 6. I agree that it is very frustrating.

(FWIW they were quite happy to tell us that she has a reading & comprehension age of X years - well great, we KNOW that she can read, what we don't know is - given that her writing has improved a lot with help at home - whether it is now approaching a reasonable level for her age group).

Frankly, I don't see what purpose either reports or routine parent teacher meetings serve at dd's school as they seem entirely designed to avoid giving any meaningful information to parents.

Hi:

Schools should be using APP (in England at least) - which stands for Assessing Pupils Progress. Information & the guidance document can be found here at DfE website: www.education.gov.uk/publications/standard/_arc_SOP/Page6/DCSF-00129-2009

The document does state: Curricular targets, informed by APP, can be shared with pupils and parents to support discussions about where pupils are in their learning and what they need to do to progress.

Now although this is optional. Schools are funded by government (therefore the tax payer). This means that they are subject to Freedom of Information legislation. Nobody has had to test this - but you are well within your right to ask to see any lesson plans, e-mails, etc... related to your child, as their legal guardian. Therefore, since the school will most likely be gathering this data you are entitled to see it.

I suspect that if you ask, the school will realise that you're only asking for them to communicate the data they've already gathered - you're not really creating a lot of work.

Our school was very resistant at first, but since deciding to roll out feedback about APP results to parents at parent/ teacher meetings and to children it has helped everyobdy be more focused about what is required to move from a 3a to 4c (on SAT levels) in maths, for example.

I'm not certain that it has radically improved my understanding of how my child is doing - but it is 100% more information than I was getting before and seems much more pertinent than 'DD1 enjoys all forms of movement and is paritcularly fond of dancing'. And other 'lovely to teach' type statements that tell you nothng in terms of reading, writing and arithmetic.

An example of the information you can gain is here for APP reading scales:
portfolio.pebblepad.co.uk/cumbria/viewasset.aspx?oid=301842&type=webfolio&pageoid=315049

Examples of APP maths grids here from North Somerset Council: www.n-somerset.gov.uk/Education/Learning/thelearningteam/appgrids.htm

Why should schools in England be using APP?

Hi mrz

Just a Mum not a teacher - so I have to pass this to someone out there who is a teacher, a head or with DfE or Ofsted.

From what I understand the DfE recommends (but may be requires) teachers to keep APP scores for every child in main subjects: reading, writing, arithmetic.

Our school is now sharing that information.

APP isn't statutory schools don't have to use it and many don't

Hi mrz

Love to know what you think of APP. I find it clear and incremental - so useful to see what little steps are required to achieve higher level (i.e. 3a to 4c). Teachers are given time one morning (9 - 11:30 + lunch) a week for APP work/ admin whilst children are at forest school/ PE & language teaching (KS2), music or swimming (this is a state primary - and yes that works out to reviewing 7-8 kids in 2 1/2 hours - which probably isn't adequate time).

We find a few highlighted items on APP scale - gives us something to focus on at home to support learning.

Since you're not using APP. What do you do? and What do you tell parents at parent/ teacher meetings in terms of helping with progression?

Hi gabid:

If you're not sure what should be covered at your school - try looking at Campaign for Real Education curriculum targets by age/ year here: www.cre.org.uk/primary_contents.html

Please bear in mind that this is written for 'an ideal world' and is most likely a higher standard than your school is actually working to. Nevertheless it is written fairly clearly and does help you to guage where your child should be.

Good luck.

Our school worked in the opposite way - I was told my dd was falling behind the rest of the class, I asked for a sample of "average work" nationally rather than at the high achieving school she attended - I wanted to see how out of sync she was, teacher said she left that book at home and got out another child's book and said "there's your competition!"

We find highlighting a few items on APP grids leave parents confused so we prefer to sit down and provide concrete examples of what is needed to move on.

Hi mrz & Diddee

Here is example of feedback from October parent teacher meeting for DD2 just starting Y4.

DD2 working toward level 3a in writing. She's achieved almost everything - but needs to work on opening sentences with wider range of adverbs and adverbial phrases (e.g. soon, the next moment, etc...). We weren't provided with adverb sheet - but we looked that up on line and worked on recognising them in reading at home.

DD2 also asked to work on writing in paragraphs to achieve level 3a.

DD2 also working to 3a in maths. She's asked two things:

a) to think about numbers in calculation and choose a good way of doing the calculations (bit vague - but get the idea this is about applying maths skills to written problems).

b) add and subtract 2-digit numbers efficiently.

There was nothing for reading - but she's in an accelerated reading programme because her reading age is about 1 year below chronological age - so she's getting extra time/ support with that.

Found this all useful and we've tried our best to work on it at home - with some good results.

PastSellByDate - yes, I would find that helpful.

In our school (infant school) DS is in Y2. They only seem to give vague/positive information in reports, parents meeting or when I asked directly. On the other hand they invite parents to lessons in order to help them support their children. That's when I became alarmed about what my DS is being taught.

I felt DS was behind at the end of Y1 but his teacher told me he is where he should be. In any case, I did some maths with him over the summer and since starting back in September DS seems to be 'getting it'. I did not see that in the lesson I saw. The school only gave vague answers to my questions but did say that DS is slightly behind .

Sorry, I am not very clear.

I thought DS was being taught at a lower level than he is capable of (e.g. in the lesson and in his book he was calculating within 10 or 20, when I know he can add 2 digid numbers).