Are teachers ever removed from the classroom for poor performance?

[lexie01]

Would be very interested to hear from other MN's to see if they have any experience of this. My DD1 is currently being taught (or not as the case may be) by a teacher who has had numerous compaints made about her teaching skills and behaviour management over many years. So far this term I know she has been invited to have a 'chat' with the headmaster twice about issues raised by concerned parents - however from what I can see nothing has been done to positively address the issue. Do teachers ever get sacked??

Yes. Capability proceedings can be brought for underperforming teachers. Two in my school at the moment. Brutal. Parents wouldn't know about it though.

Yes I know of teachers who have gone through the process . Parents would just think that they left .

I'm sure she's being offered more support, and being sent on training courses. I'm sure her plans are being scrutinised, and her lessons are being observed.

If all of this fails then school can fire her. But it takes a long time to prove that she can't improve even with support and training.

It's more normal for the teacher to either take extended sick leave, or to be moved to a non teaching position.

You might have to write this year off. :(

Thanks everyone for your replies. I have certainly never heard of capability proceedings - but then I probably wouldn't as I'm not a teacher.

IndigoBell - I know a few parents who have said something similar about writing the year off but I don't feel I can do that. I work on the basis that every school year is important and that when a child enters school you enter into a paartnership with that school. It feels in this instance that we are all as parents 'doing our bit' (extended project work, reading, pta, helping out at school etc) but they are failing in theirs - which is to teach.

Things may be taking place behind the scenes that I am not aware of but I do find it laughable that a teacher might 'go on extended sick leave' or be moved to a non teaching role - still being paid (and presumably still maintaining her pension) when she is not performing. Believe me if this happened in the private sector she would have been sacked or made redundant many years ago.

Sorry for the rant but very annoyed......

Well then you'll have to move school - which I have done and can highly recommend :)

I can't think of any other options you have.

I just moved from one state school to another. The next closest one.....

Yes, it is easier (although still hard) to fire people in the private sector.

Yes; capability proceedings are harsh, brutal and carried out in private. They are definitely not something parents are privy to.

And at the end of it they are not put in a non-teaching role or off on long term sick maintaining their pension...

Well, not in secondary schools anyway

You are right, at the end of capability proceedings the teacher is not off on sick leave or in a non-teaching role. They are fired, never to work in a school again.

I was suggesting that many schools / teachers go down that route instead of finishing off the brutal capability proceedings.

That, and of course, giving them fabulous references so that they move voluntarily to a different school.

Yes they are BUT it is a slow process and the teacher has the right to appeal and may involve their union. Usually they are given notice to improve and extra training. They should also be monitored regularly by SMT and have lessons observed. Sometimes if this situation is due to other factors such as illness or caring responsibilities the teacher may have their hours reduced, but this depends on the circumstances.
School governors (or possibly just Chair) will be aware whether this process is occurring and what the circumstances are but this information will not be available to parents.
However if a school is put into OFSTED special measures there are procedures for getting rid of under-performing teachers more quickly.

It is incredibly hard to get rid of incompetent teachers if they haven't done anything illegal. Think about how many doctors lose their licences in the US and how many teachers. Doctors tend to be pretty smart and have gone through quite a lot of training, why are they statistically so much less competent than teachers?

Personnel matters are (or should be) confidential. That includes capability proceedings. The teacher is an employee and has employment rights just like anyone else.

Even in the private sector, employers can't just get rid of people. They should follow recognised disciplinary/capability procedures or they risk being taken to an industrial tribunal.

Those who said write the year off were probably just being pragmatic. I would be the same and making plans accordingly. Even if the teacher did leave in the middle of the year (whether she jumps or is pushed) there are no guarantees about what the replacement teacher willl be like.

It can actually take most of a year to complete capability procedures if after investigation there is a case for formalising the process.

Being devil's advocate here a bit ... what is wrong with the teacher's teaching skills and behaviour management? I'm just thinking, if she's been in post for many years, she's likely to have had lots of observed lessons (probably by the HT), Ofsted visits, LEA inspections and the progress of her class will have been monitored (certainly in the core subjects) probably on a termly basis ... I'm just wondering what the parents have spotted that all these other people who've been in the classroom have not. It is possible to start capability procedures, but they have to be based on results and what is seen in school. They can't be started based solely on anecdotes from parents.

There's a teacher who I'm sure this happened to at dd's school. She was crap, everyone knew she was crap. Thankfully she never taught dd.

I went to the head at the end of one year and politely said that I'd heard there was a teacher who was teaching the next year up who wasn't very good and under no circumstances did I want her near dd (who had a lot of academic problems). Head sniggered and told me he knew which teacher I meant so it was obviously no secret.

Loads of parents were complaining and then the next year she was given 15 kids to teach even though every other teacher had between 28-30. I hear she was still crap. Plus the head spent quite a bit of time sitting in on her lessons and she had lots of time off for "a special course"

Then the next year she didn't come back after the holidays.

She was so sacked.

Teachers are not moved into non teaching positions unless they are sacked or leave teaching and then become employed as something else by the same school, which would be unlikely.

As for extended sick leave that can happen but the teacher would have to attend medical reviews and after six months would go down to half pay and then down again after another six months I think. It would be very rare for it to drag on that long.

Sorry, by non-teaching position I meant not a class teacher.

So they become the teacher who takes PPA, or 1:1 or the SENCO or French or the person who covers other staff absences.

This does happen - although only if the school can afford to juggle them into such a role.

Extended sick leave happens because the teacher genuinely gets sick from the stress of capability procedures. After a while they normally resign.

It's very sad all round, and there are no winners.

In 11 years I have known 3 teachers who have been through capabilities. In 2000, a teacher resigned in the middle of capabilities to do joinery. I got his post. The second teacher was literally 6 weeks into my post. I had 'experience' of her incapabilities and by half term she was on long term sick, resigned and then tried and failed to bring a disciplinary hearing regarding bullying by the head and deputy (I later learnt that the deputy is a bully and still can be - first hand experience!). The third was in 2004 when a teacher had a break down in the middle of an observation. He was in the middle of capabilities but considering his breakdown was so public, he never came back. I have heard rumours that a fourth teacher is going through the same procedures and when I covered that teacher's class, I could clearly see failing in that person's teaching. That person is now on sick leave.

Capabilities - brutal, long drawn out process with the majority resigning before it has completed so they can go back into education at a 'later day'. In my experience the failings of a teacher are mainly due to long term depression.

I myself have suffered depression but luckily my teaching never faltered. My depression was not work related it was for personal reasons although work colleagues were a catalyst for it. Luckily I had 100% support from many colleagues and the head (NOT the deputy who was one of 2 people who were the cause of it - the other, strangely enough being the 'fourth' person who is now on sick leave with it!) and it was short term.

Please remember that although your child's education is a top priority, teachers are human beings too and there could be more to the whole 'failing as a teacher' than meets the eyes. Playgrounds are a notorious and hurtful place for gossip to spread.

You can wrap capability measures up within a month if needs be. There is sometimes no need for an investigation.

www.education.gov.uk/publications/eorderingdownload/capability-guidance.pdf

Can I share a horrible personal experpience, obviously with some details altered?
An ex (teacher) colleague of mine was alleged to have done and said some pretty serious things in class, including directly suggesting pupils were gay, using the adjective "retarded" then claiming it "just means late." Sounds petty, but I really can't give more examples for fear of being identified. Anecdotal evidence suggests a lot worse, but finally one parent complained and WOULDN'T be fobbed off with "I'll talk to him."
Colleague was suspended (on full pay).
Colleague was a union rep - his union rep stalled EVERY single meeting/hearing that was scheduled with some frankly untrue excuses. I and other colleagues were called as witnesses. Union rep tried every dirty trick in the book, including trying to dig up "dirt" about us witnesses. It was a really, really disturbing year. Meanwhile this teacher's class was covered by a long term supply teacher who was just AWFUL.
After 6 months, colleague's contract was finally severed, official reason being "irreconcilable differences," NOT due to the awful things he had said and done. (Some comments had sexual connotations that were truly awful.)
Colleague, not satisfied for being off most of the year on full pay, threatened to take us to tribunal - The LA freaked out and said if he agrees not to, we will pay him for the rest of the year and guarantee him a decent reference.
I have NO faith in the teaching profession any more. Am in it now PURELY for the kids - if anyone wants to pull me up for paperwork/crap related issues, let them.

Suggested upper limits. Can be over and done within 4 weeks, and is quite often.

Please remember that although your child's education is a top priority, teachers are human beings too and there could be more to the whole 'failing as a teacher' than meets the eyes. Playgrounds are a notorious and hurtful place for gossip to spread.
Mum2be79 - this is so, so true. I really wish more people realised this.

www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/Teachers-win-constructive-dismissal-case-Swansea-Valley-school/story-12407242-detail/story.html

lexie01
*You still haven't said what the concerns are.
Fully agree with you Mum2be79