church school application verifying attendance

[freakazoidroid]

I am applying to my local c of e school. It is oversubscribed and has further entrance criteria. This is-

Must have attended church at least twice per month, a year prior to application.Children who are baptised, who themselves or a parent are practising members of st andrews church.
NB A practisibg member of church is one who has been baptised and attended church at least twice per month 12 months prior to the application.

I have been attending the church twice per month, am baptised as is my son.
I have just filled in the form for the parish office to sign and they said they cannot do this as they cannot verify I have been attending church twice a month,even though they have seen me and recognise me. They asked me to find someone in the congregation do verify this which I have done. I went back and told them this and they said this was not enough!

Apparently i should have been taking my son to the sunday school where they have a register. Obviously if I had known this I would have done this. I even emailed the church office to ask if there was a register or anything , and they just emailed the above criteria back. I have looked at the dept of education website and they say that entrance procedures must be clear. Well, this does not appear clear to me!

I actually do attend church and changed my church so my son could apply for the place at the other school,so I dont need comments on trying to get my kids in to a church school etc.I am a practising christioan. I just prefer to go tho church on my own.

I would love it if anyone had any experence of this and could offer some advice.

Thanks

This seems like a familiar dilemma. There was another like this recently.

Does seem very unclear. We're going through the same thing for the Catholic school, weekly attendance for 2.5 years and a liturgy group to attend as part of this but the attendance forms are very clearly at the back of the church and the liturgy register is for their records rather than school applications. We all know which bits we should be signing.

I don't know what advice to give except keep at them. It's very unfair if you think you've been doing everything you've been led to believe was required. I hope you get it sorted.

Thank you for your replies!

Are you on the electoral roll ? If your name has been one for more than a year then it would be hard for them to argue that you do not meet the criteria.
Have you attended any pre-school groups with ds so would any toddler leaders who go to the church know you and be able to sign on your behalf.
Do you have copies of the baptism certificates ?
The criteria clearly state either a parent or child and applying it in this way would discriminate against single parent families who may not be with the same parent each weekend.

thanks crazymum. We are on the electoral roll,lived in our house for4 years. i am unsure how this would help my application though as it does prove my church attendance. They have seen the baptism certificates.

there is a church electoral roll as well as the council one....

Electoral roll won't show you've attended as much as they require. You can go on the electoral roll because you are a "regular attender", defined as attending either 2 or 4 times in a year, or if you live in the parish. It might help your case, but it won't prove what they want.

Yes, entrance procedures must be clear but that applies to the school. The school is not responsible for the arrangements churches put in place to verify attendance.

Have you tried talking to the vicar?

What I am objecting to is that they did not put in the original statement on the supplementary info form, I needed to register at Sunday school . No where has it said this! Obviously if I knew this I would have done it.

This is where the school admission criteria and the church's definition of regular attender start to go wrong.
The question I would ask is whether there is anything else at all within the school admission criteria. To my mind as a panel member I would expect if the only way of registering appropriate attendance is to go to sunday school that this should be within the admission arrangements.
You appear to have sufficient evidence to show that you have tried to carry out the admission criteria arrangements and I would suggest that you approach the vicar and the parish office again with the information you have and ask that they accept that you have met the criteria. If they still refuse to sign then I would approach the school head teacher / governing body and indicate to them that as the admission process is not clear and that the church is putting in place alternative criteria that you have no alternative but to go to the School Adjudicator and ask for a ruling on what is correct. I would be very surprised if they thought the church was correct based on what is your email. Of course your name will be mud and it still does not in any way guarantee you a place at the school.

I can't talk to the vicar as he does not deal with the school applications. Just wardens

I would just talk to the vicar.

oh, sorry x post

Can you not approach him on the grounds that there is a problem?

Thanks admission for your reply. It was helpful , although I don't want my name to be mud

I also feel they are accusing me of being a liar
I didn't state to anyone when I first started attending my new church that this is what I was doing.

The problem is the church wardens are making their own rules when actually they do not appear to understand that it is what is in the school admission criteria as laid down in the admission booklet of the LA that is actually what has to be followed. If they wish to use a registration book for those attending sunday school then it has to be in the admission criteria. Personally I suspect that the schools adjudicator would say this is not appropriate but you need to take the steps I have outlined to get a decision or give up your idea of going to the school.
If you go to appeal on the basis of not having been given priority and the panel agree with you then the panel will also have to report the deviation from the admission criteria and admission code to the schools adjudicator, so there is no way around being unpopular with the school / church if you wish to take it further.

The best shortcut through all this nonsense would be a lawyer's letter.

This is a good demonstration of why Churches should NOT in any way control admissions to schools.

I don't think they are accusing you of being a liar but presumably they need to be able to demonstrate in each case why someone meets or doesn't meet the criteria, especially when competition for school places is so great.

Surely an adjudicator would ask why you didn't enquire when you changed churches what was needed to ensure an application would be verified and signed, whether you attend with or without your child. I know at the church my husband attends it is usually the first question new arrivals ask!

However, I think Admissions advice is the best regarding approaching the vicar and office again.

I couldn't pass this thread by without offering some comments because we where in your position this time last year.

We too had our attendance unconfirmed because I had attended different worship services sometimes with and sometimes without my children.

The clergy reference form supplied by the school asked for 'the confirmation that the parent's of child X have worshiped regularly' in this case once per month for a year prior to application. But I found that our church confirmed that they used only the sunday school child's register to measure the required attendance. This was not mentioned in any published material by the church, school or in the admissions booklet.

I approached the vicar and although very sypathetic seemed to suggest their hands where tied and it was not their decision. The school confirmed they could only act on the information supplied by the church. The head of education at our Diocese did not return my calls or emails asking for some clarification on diocese guidelines relating to the recording of church attendance for school admission purposes.

To make things worse we already had our DS in year one and lived over 2 miles from the next 3 schools, two always over subscribed. Sibling priority was only given in the school's oversubscription criteria if a clergy reference was supplied also.

We didn't get offered a place, at our 600m away school which my DS already attends or our second and third choices.

We had no option but to appeal. We outlined all of the above and lost. No reason is given in the outcome letter so we do not know for what reason the panel thought the practise of undisclosed recording methods was ok to continue. It took up 4 months of our lives this year.

What really upset me was the amount of other parents who told my stories of other churches in the town being too free and easy with clergy references, surely they should be working consistently ?

I hear now that our church has adopted a signing in system at the entrance for parents rather than a register in sunday school, something l suggested in my appeal, funny that.

In appealing we have not been popular with the headteacher , we have acted professionally at all times, she unfortunately has not. I walk into the school everyday with my head held high for my DS, I know we did the right thing, but l would not want anyone else to go through the same.

So you must pursue this at every angle before you get to the deadline for applications. Get onto the Vicar, Diocese, Headteacher, Local Ed Admissions Dept and anyone else you can think of. Goodluck

THanks Cheese

Your info is great. Did you manage to get a place at the school you went to thebchurch for?

I am surprised that this church does so little to find out and welcome newcomers. At my church all newcomers are automatically given a visitors form asking them for details of their family etc. and if people are transferring from another church then someone would contact the old church as well.
Is St. Andrews church very large as this would make it easier for a visitor to be missed.
When I was a student I did join a very large C of E church which had 1000+ regular attenders at morning services and I did have to have a "membership style" interview before I could go on the electoral roll so hence my comments earlier. They had a school attached and I helped at the Sunday school which was very large (30+ children per year group) so it would in theory be possible for most of the places at their school to have been filled by church children.

BUT I have to say that I have reservations about the admissions criteria for the school. Most C of E schools do not insist on attending a particular church as this would discriminate against families attending other C of E churches that do not have their own schools and would also discriminate against families of other denominations such as Methodists and baptists.

"Did you manage to get a place at the school you went to thebchurch for?"

So much wrong with this question. Ugh.

To be fair I do not think the question was meant as in we only went to church to get a school place.

I think there are significant problems with church schools, in their use of churches as part of the admissions process and how that then sits within the overall admissions process for ALL schools. I have only come to this conclusion after falling foul of the process and spending months preparing for an appeal reading up on the schools admission code etc.

In my case l have seen a lot of denial in what is actually occuring and an unwillingness to tackle it. My school has decided rather then look at the existing problems to raise the required worship level in two ways, to twice per month eighteen months before application.

The Schools Admission Code, when l last read it, was very clear on what was expected of schools in the admissions process, but lacking in the regulation of how and what information the churches provide, as part of the same process, was openly communicated to prospective parents. You should not need to ask and seek, it should be readily available to you.

Absolutely agrre cheese, its almost like a clique!
And also I did attend another church regulary ,I just want my daughter to go to a good school connected to a different church, mrs alfred!