church school application verifying attendance

[freakazoidroid]

I am applying to my local c of e school. It is oversubscribed and has further entrance criteria. This is-

Must have attended church at least twice per month, a year prior to application.Children who are baptised, who themselves or a parent are practising members of st andrews church.
NB A practisibg member of church is one who has been baptised and attended church at least twice per month 12 months prior to the application.

I have been attending the church twice per month, am baptised as is my son.
I have just filled in the form for the parish office to sign and they said they cannot do this as they cannot verify I have been attending church twice a month,even though they have seen me and recognise me. They asked me to find someone in the congregation do verify this which I have done. I went back and told them this and they said this was not enough!

Apparently i should have been taking my son to the sunday school where they have a register. Obviously if I had known this I would have done this. I even emailed the church office to ask if there was a register or anything , and they just emailed the above criteria back. I have looked at the dept of education website and they say that entrance procedures must be clear. Well, this does not appear clear to me!

I actually do attend church and changed my church so my son could apply for the place at the other school,so I dont need comments on trying to get my kids in to a church school etc.I am a practising christioan. I just prefer to go tho church on my own.

I would love it if anyone had any experence of this and could offer some advice.

Thanks

Is this not really unfair to the children, they are effectively being forced into Sunday school and they may not want to go?? Our church does Children's Liturgy during the service. My eldest DD always hated it with a vengence, she just refused to go and would rather sit through the service quietly. DD2 likes it and is happy to go (as she can't sit quietly through the service) Our priest is fine either way, he would not force children to go just to get a school place (and our school is over subscribed too) I imagine Sunday school must have some poor miserable kids wishing they did not have to be there!!!!

we have a similar situation but any family member can sign a book by the main entrance. it is not obvious, it is just an old tatty notebook. the church is very family friendly and welcoming to newcomers but they do not advertise how to get a place at the church school - that's not their priority!

we were told about signing in just in time and i did discuss it with a member of the church committee who said in no uncertain terms that there was uproar in the village a few years ago between neighbours over places so something had to be done, oh what a shame etc etc.

Freak - what does your form actually ask for ? Mine was that the child's (insert name) parent(s) had attended for the required minimum.

Using a child's register does not measure the parent's attendance. You should have the freedom to attend other worship services with or without your children, and as was pointed out some children prefer to stay in the body of the church for the service and not attend sunday school.

The form is part of the admissions process so it should be completed as intended. I do not believe churches acting in this way are completing it as required.

I raised this at my appeal but without success.

Cheese, the form says children who have been baptised, who themselves or a parent, are practicing members of st Andrews church. Nb a practicing member of the church is someone who has been baptised and has attended worship at the church at least twice per month 12 months prior to the application.

All of which I am and have done.

I even remembering phoning the head of the school last year and asking about admissions and he did say I needed to attend the church , but nothing about registering!

So I did try and find out and I emailed the church, whom also said nothing about registering.

Cheese, how did the appeal process work ?

Thanks!

Freak, the appeals process is the standard one everyone is entitled to if you believe a mistake was made with your application or that the criteria themselves do not meet the terms of the Schools Admission Code - and that as a result of this you would have been offered a place if it/they had not happened.

The problem is its more about the process the school (in church schools case) or the local education department go through to gather applications, process them and then make the offers. The 'process' starts when you complete your application and finishes (as l was told) when the initial offers of a place are made.

So the issue with this type of case is that strictly speaking what the church do or do not do to complete the form is not within the control of the school, so they are therefore not responsible. (i would question this)

Also in my case, 30 offers of a place where made, we were number 31, two families declined their places, but we still did not get a place because between offers being made and final acceptances being confirmed two original applicants 'added' new clergy references to their original applications and thus went ahead of us on the waiting list. This too was not openly communicated.

Additional information (other than moving home and updating your clergy reference) was not allowed to be added to your application. So in our case medical consultant and GP letters in support of our application were not considered because 'medical need is not one of our oversubscription criteria'.

Appeals are time and life consuming if you allow them to be, they also have a very small success rate. But they are your right and free. I would advise trying all avenues to get this sorted before the deadline.

Cheese that is just awful

I really feel for you. I emailed our diocese education and schools lady today. Also the council stating all that I have outlined here eg doing what is asked on admissions, asking at the church office and also the schools head.

So I will await a reply .did u go as far as the eduction adductor stage?

Thanks

Just a thought - if you have giftaided your contribution to the collection at the services you attended the church have to keep a record of this in order to claim the giftaid from HRMC - usually the PCC treasurer will hold the records - it could be one way to prove your attendance met the admissions requirements?

Did you keep a note of the services you attended?

Hi betsy

thank yu for your reply,unfortunately i did ot use the gift aid at collection, i just put my ten pounds in the pouch.
Your idea did not cross my mind too !

Freak, whats done is done for my situation, cannot change it, had my say at appeal and now l have to let it go and do whats best for my family.

We need to concentrate on helping you through this.

Families I know keep an order of service copy as proof they have attended, i don't suppose you would have ?

I went to the ajudicator after my appeal was unsuccessful because I wanted to sound out a couple of things which I felt made me uncomfortable on the day such as having the appeal in church and the area being clear of any church employees (which it was not, the vicar sat in their office with the door open). I do not know whether you can approach them before application as such, but l would call them as they are very helpful on the phone.

Get some 1:1 time with the vicar, don't be fobbed off or feel a bit intimidated into not having your say, as in my case the Vicar kept halting the conversation to pray with/for me, it was a sincere thing to do but made me feel the conversation was closed down somehow.

Just as an aside, for my dds school, church forms are signed on the attendance of the child not the parents so you wouldn't be entitled to a place if you didn't take your child with you everytime

I was under the impression that the policies were put in place by the school governors, invariably the vicar is a governor of his local church school. this is not a warden responsibility but the vicars. It seems ridiculous that parents are expected to sign in at church, this is not what church is about. Get involved and be active within the fabric of the church and your attendance would not be in doubt.