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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

Maths set question

52 replies

HexMex · 21/11/2011 08:52

DS is in Y5 in a small non-selective private school (only 13 DC in his class). He is in top set for maths. Last year the set started with 8 DC in it but over the course of the year 2 of them left and 2 were moved to lower set as they were struggling to keep up, leaving 4 in top set and 9 in the other set. At the beginning of this year the Y5 teacher decided to 'even up the numbers' and moved 3 DC up. This seemed a bit odd at the time but I assumed that they had made a lot of progress in Y4.

They have just done the termly maths test. The 4 original DC all got 90% plus. None of the 3 DC the teacher moved up scored above 60%, and 2 scored below 50%. I've seen the paper they did (DS brought it home to do corrections) and it was pretty easy (certainly based on what top set were doing last year) so am not surprised that the 4 scored highly.

Can the teacher cater for this spread of ability? She is not differentiating the work at all, and I can't see how she can be going at a pace appropriate for all the DC.

It's parent's meeting this week-should I raise this with her? Or am I going to sound like a pushy Mum? She's not exactly approachable...

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seeker · 21/11/2011 08:54

If your dc got 90% what's the problem? Or am I missing the point?

coccyx · 21/11/2011 08:55

Blimey how do you know details of the other childrens marks?

Original poster

HexMex · 21/11/2011 09:09

As I said, the test was really easy so it's no wonder that they got over 90%. If it had been more challenging there wouldn't be a problem-for my DS-but I feel a bit sorry for the other 3 DC who clearly struggled with it.

I know the marks because the teacher read them all out in class. Which isn't great either.

OP posts:

GooseyLoosey · 21/11/2011 09:17

Wow - it sounds fine for your ds, but as though the others are not doing appropriate work or getting appropriate support. I would not be too happy if I was their parent.

Original poster

HexMex · 21/11/2011 09:40

Neither would I Goosey.

I'm not sure if it's great for any of them TBH. I can't see how she can do anything but 'teach to the middle'. Except there isn't really a middle in this instance. Not sure any of them are benefitting from the arrangement.

OP posts:

exoticfruits · 21/11/2011 09:51

I never know why people pay for something they don't like. It may have small classes, but you miss the advantage if the teacher can't differentiate.

aries12 · 21/11/2011 09:53

I think your own child is being well catered for so therefore I would not mention other children to the teacher. It is a small class....there is no way everybody will be at the same level.
A Maths test is a reflection of the scores on any one day...children may have the ability but may just not score so highly on that particular day. I would leave it to the teacher to judge who should be in the class e.t.c.
Perhaps the others need to be challenged we do not know. They are all still only in Primary...the other children should be given a chance to improve as well...sometimes it helps if they have a bit of competition.

DeWe · 21/11/2011 09:53

I'd expect her to be differentiating in that situation. Dd1's maths set (34) is inwardly grouped into 3 groups that do the same basic concept on 3 different levels.

It could also be that the group who moved up haven't covered certain concepts that were in the test simply because they did them last year when they were in a different set, so they couldn't get higher than a certain level. Not necessarily struggling on the maths they have covered.

With those numbers I'd expect them to want to even up, I'd generally expect there to be fewer in the lower group as they would need more support, so I don't think you can complain about this. If your ds is finishing his work quickly, I'd mention this and ask if they could have some extension work, particuarly maths investigations that they'd find fun and can do at their own level.

exoticfruits · 21/11/2011 10:00

He isn't being well catered for-who knows where he could go if she moved at his pace?

Original poster

HexMex · 21/11/2011 10:32

No, he isn't being well catered for-and neither are the other 3 from last year's top set. They are moving very slowly and the work he is bringing home is far too easy. Last year they were going at an appropriate pace for them and covered a lot that the other set didn't so it's no wonder that the 3 DC moved up are struggling. I can't see how it's sensible to organise the sets based on numbers of DC, particularly as they had moved so far ahead. As I said, it's a small class so if the sets had been left as they were there would only be 9 in the lower one.

Even if they leave the sets as they are now, surely she should be differentiating? DS is getting bored- he loved maths last year.

They will all be sitting exams for their next schools in Y6. Some will be going for more competitive schools than others. The level of their maths will have a bearing on the outcome of those exams, for all of the DC

OP posts:

ragged · 21/11/2011 10:56

You need to express all your concerns to the school, HexMex. You are paying after all, that should give you lots of leverage.

Do they tell you their success rate for getting kids into selective secondaries?

Fwiw, DS(y7) attends a very similar school with similar "practices". DS also high ability (top of his (tiny) yeargroup).
I raise eyebrows to it all... but I can see that it's probably still best school for DS, although the situation under constant review. I have been told however that work is differentiated for DS, and his private school has much better GCSE results than all the local state secondaries (in spite of, I think, poorer quality intake), so they make it work in long run (I think/hope!).

aries12 · 21/11/2011 10:58

If all the work in Maths is too easy for him then I think you should mention it to the teacher. You do have a valid point particularly since it is a private school.
It is very easy to give extra work to the more able students. Surely there are Maths problems and investigations they could be working on.
Since it is such a small group it should be fairly easy to differentiate between two groups. Most teachers manage to do it with 30 odd students.

Original poster

HexMex · 21/11/2011 12:14

Thanks both.

Ragged yes the schools the DC move on to are published. Their record isn't bad but consistently not as good as other non-selectives in the area.

Aries yes I think she should be differentiating within the set. As you say, other teachers manage this whilst dealing with much bigger groups.

Think I will mention it at parents evening. Don't expect to get a positive response though. She's not known for her flexibility...

OP posts:

ragged · 21/11/2011 12:37

How bad are the state schools?
What if you put him into a state school & spent money on a good tutor instead?

Original poster

HexMex · 21/11/2011 12:55

State schools not bad at all. Not even sure we'd need a tutor as I'd be happy to cover any additional stuff with him. But we're already in Y5 and aside from this issue he's happy there. If we moved him he'd have a year and 2 terms in a new school then have to move again (plus we'd be liable for next term's fees so would save on 4 terms only).

The truth is we should have moved him ages ago-I think we've left it too long. And I want them to sort this out rather than put him through the upheaval of moving school mid-year.

OP posts:

aries12 · 21/11/2011 13:42

Moving a child in Y5 can be disruptive and it could distact him from what he should be really focusing on. As you said he will be moving shortly anyway so it is probably best to leave him where he is.

Good luck in your question to the teacher re differentiation within the group. It is probably the best approach to take!

seeker · 21/11/2011 16:57

"How bad are the state schools?"

This is such an infuriating post. The op hadn't mentioned the quality of the state schools, and indeed later said that they were not bad at all. But some poster just assume that private good/ state bad. Even on a thread where a child is obviously not being well served by the private school in question.

As you were. Ignore me.

exoticfruits · 21/11/2011 17:15

I'm not ignoring you-a most sensible post. In a state school the teacher would differentiate the work. It seems mad to pay out when a teacher aims for the middle when she only has a small class to start with.Complain.

Original poster

HexMex · 21/11/2011 17:47

I will exoticfruits

And Seeker I agree with you re private schools being automatically better. They're not.

OP posts:

ragged · 21/11/2011 18:30

I was assuming that the OP's local state schools must be pretty dire for her to put up with the situation as is. That said, being happy is essential for good academic achievement (hence why DS is where he is, too, even though I am sure that local state secondaries offer far better opportunities). So I can understand why OP is reluctant to move in spite of decent state options.... although personally, I would seriously consider moving if I were her.

magdalene · 21/11/2011 18:40

By god, state schools aren't great at differentiating either. What has this thread become - salute state education? Many parents go to great lengths to put their kids in the private sector - and while there are dire state schools, there'll always be private schools!

Ask the teacher if you feel your son isn't being catered for.

exoticfruits · 21/11/2011 19:07

Some state schools are excellent, some are dire-some private schools are excellent some are dire.
I think that you are mad to pay for a school that you are not happy with.
I mentioned the fact that state schools differentiate because I was supply teaching and all the schools that I went to would have differentiated. However, as a supply teacher I could choose and I agree that they don't all differentiate, even though they are expected to.

magdalene · 21/11/2011 19:15

Yes you get dire in both sectors but let's face it there wouldn't be so many private schools out there if there were an abundance of excellent state schools.

You need to differentiate especially in a class of 30!

exoticfruits · 21/11/2011 19:24

It is just as important in a class of 13.

seeker · 21/11/2011 19:31

"Yes you get dire in both sectors but let's face it there wouldn't be so many private schools out there if there were an abundance of excellent state schools."

Yes there would. Most private school parents wouldn't send their children to a state school even if the state school was brilliant. You see it on here all the time. People come on talking about ghastly things happening at private schools, but their child is still there " because it's the best place for dd"

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