Maths set question

[HexMex]

DS is in Y5 in a small non-selective private school (only 13 DC in his class). He is in top set for maths. Last year the set started with 8 DC in it but over the course of the year 2 of them left and 2 were moved to lower set as they were struggling to keep up, leaving 4 in top set and 9 in the other set. At the beginning of this year the Y5 teacher decided to 'even up the numbers' and moved 3 DC up. This seemed a bit odd at the time but I assumed that they had made a lot of progress in Y4.

They have just done the termly maths test. The 4 original DC all got 90% plus. None of the 3 DC the teacher moved up scored above 60%, and 2 scored below 50%. I've seen the paper they did (DS brought it home to do corrections) and it was pretty easy (certainly based on what top set were doing last year) so am not surprised that the 4 scored highly.

Can the teacher cater for this spread of ability? She is not differentiating the work at all, and I can't see how she can be going at a pace appropriate for all the DC.

It's parent's meeting this week-should I raise this with her? Or am I going to sound like a pushy Mum? She's not exactly approachable...

Oh, and my ds is in a very average state primary school- and in his Maths set of 30 there are 6 different tables all doing different levels of work.

Perhaps the marks were not as your son said? (Has he picked up on your being a bit sniffy about) the new kids moving up.Perhaps they just had a bad day.perhaps they have as much or more innate mathematical ability as your sonl but being in the lower set haven't covered everything your DS's set have yet.
Your post does sound very snooty.Like you want your Ds in the top set and then pull the ladder up sop others can't catch him up

I really didn't want this to descend into a state vs private debate. For the record, as I have said, I believe there are good and bad in both sectors. DS is where he is for complicated reasons which I won't go into here because I don't want to out myself.

Spiderpig I am far from snooty. The scores are accurate; they haven't just come from DS (who couldn't give a flying fk what other DC get in exams, and to whom I have certainly not communicated my concerns) but from other parents in the set who are equally concerned that their DC are struggling. How likely is it that they all had a bad day ? It's not about 'pulling the ladder up', my question was about whether they could all be being taught effectively with this spread of ability, and with no differentiation. But if it pleases you to imagine me as a stereotypical, pushy, private school parent then do be my guest.

The bottom line is that many people don't get a choice with a state school BUT this is a private school with very small classes and you are paying the money and putting up with poor teaching. Why?

Sorry, HexMex- the derailing was my fault, I think. I just saw a typical bit of state school bashing ( not from you!) and saw red.

Back to the subject, yes, q teach can most definitely cart for that spread of ability. And it does look very much s if your ds isn't getting the level of work he needs. Have you got any work thwtnhe did last year so you can show the teacher that he was working at a higher level then? Are they given NC levels?

So many typos, sorry. Hope you can read it!

If a parent is unhappy with their child's schooling, then thay should have the right to mention it(private or state sector). However, if i was 'paying' for my dcs education, i would deffo mention it.

It should be perfectly possible for her to run 3 differentiated maths groups, especially with such small numbers. So she could have the 4 original top-groupers as the top group, 3 or 4 in middle group and the remainder in the lowest group!!

If you pay you expect to get what you want-and if you don't you can remove and find something that you do want. With only 13 it should be simple to run 3 groups and give them equal time.

Seeker no worries. It wasn't your post I took exception to. He was a level 5 at the end of Y4. The highest in the other set (where the 3 that moved up came from) was a 3a (and before anyone berates me for knowing other kids levels, it's not a competitive parent-type class so everyone is very relaxed about chatting about it).

The other set is taught by a different teacher in another room, so DS's teacher only has 7 DC in her set. There is no differentiation at all between those 7. The kids are all very close so there is no nastiness/impatience about who is struggling, but the top 4 are getting frustrated that they have to spend so long on each topic when they have 'got it'.

I really don't feel I can move DS at this stage, so I will raise it with his teacher this week and if I get nowhere (which I don't expect I will as she is extremely somewhat defensive) I will speak to the Head

"The other set is taught by a different teacher in another room, so DS's teacher only has 7 DC in her set. There is no differentiation at all between those 7"
So why on earth isn't she differentiating between those 7 and teaching 2 groups!!

Not quite sure I understand what you mean sarahfreck. Do you mean teach them all the same stuff but differentiate the work? Or move the top lot on to new topics when they are ready?

If I were teaching them Hexmex, I would be doing a bit of both.

Probably I'd do a 5 or 10 minute introduction that was revision for one lot and teaching for the other.(eg work on equivalent fractions). Sometimes I would then give the better students some extension work that would take them one step further or some consolidation work where they needed more practice (that they could start to get on with by themselves) while I did some more direct teaching with the less able ones (for maybe 15 minutes). Then other times I would give the less able ones some consolidation work to start getting on with while I directly taught the better group for 15 minutes or so. Then I'd alternate between the groups ,seeing where they were up to and helping as needed. This might involve moving the better group onto other topics but certainly would involve more advanced work within the topic - (eg equivalent fractions for one group, improper fractions and mixed number conversions for the other). I'd also have additional work for fast finishers (assuming they did the original work correctly).

A very easy thing your teacher could do would be to have some Bond 10 minute test books in Maths for the dc's to do at appropriate levels if they finish work quickly. These lead the dc's towards 11+ and it would be easy for the teacher to evaluate areas where they were having problems with various areas of maths from these too.

At the end of the 80's I taught in a very open plan school (state) where whole class teaching was virtually impossible because of the layout of the building. It would be normal for me to have 5 different ability groups, though they wouldn't all necessarily be doing the same subject area at the same time. I just had to rotate from group to group. It was very hard work and rather like keeping 30 plates spinning, but it can be done.

With only 7 DCs you can almost teach to individual needs.

Thanks so much, that is really helpful. The teacher doesn't do any of this, just teaches them all the same stuff (much of which DS and the other 3 did last year) and sets the same classwork and homework. It's utterly crap.

Agreed fruits!!

I wonder why she doesn't. Is she trained and qualified? Uncertain about maths? lazy?

Lazy. She hardly ever marks their work either. She's a very experienced teacher though as she never tires of pointing out

What are your local state schools like? Would things be better there? Seems strange to be paying for something so rubbish unsuited to your son's needs.

I can't really understand it. If she got a book like Target Maths here she wouldn't even have a lot of work to sort it out. It gives exercises at 3 levels. All she has to do is teach the subject, put those who are not secure on exercise A, put the secure on exercise B and use exercise C as an extension-or straight to C if very good. When I only had 17 DCs for maths in year 5 I even let them choose where to start. They were very sensible and they are not going to opt for work they can't do.

Doesn't mark it?! With only 7 DCs she could mark it with them! A good thing as it really sorts out where they go wrong.
With only 17 DCs I found that when I marked daily I could pick up the ones with problems right at the start of the next lesson. Surely when you say she doesn't mark they self mark at the end of the lesson?
Do they give her feed back as to how they found it. I used to get them to put a smiley face if they had it, a turned down mouth if they didn't understand and a straight mouth if they were OK but felt they needed more time on it. I used to do this with a class of 30.

If you use this link here you can see examples. I'm sure that there are similar books-I can't see her difficulty.

I think DS1's maths work is differentiated like exoticfruits describes.
The kids each have their own workbooks, DS1 has different targets about where he is supposed to get to in his workbook compared to his peers. He is also asked to do more of the challenge work (little extras in the margins) than some of his classmates, and the pupils get individual worksheets (I think).

I am just looking at his worksheets, some of this work he was doing 2 yrs ago in his state school . But that said, a lot of it looks like the sort of work I was doing at the same age, & I got high marks in math by age 16-17.

I think at private primary schools with small classes (I went to one but this is 20+ years ago) it seemed common to teach the children all at a similar level but in theory this was over time at a slightly higher level. This maybe due to small class sizes and more chance of 1-2-1 (though lots of larger classes have TAs with very good ratios), also even if a school is not selective if it is private they may not accept special needs pupils (who may require understandably more teacher/TA time). This school did not even have a top and bottom set from what I recall. The attached secondary did set classes however. The "slightly higher level over time" theory was supported by a higher percentage of the children getting into grammar school (published results, but again this is biased though due to a more encompassing cohort in local state schools so may not reflect quality of education on offer).

This system would be good at bringing up class average but may not be very good for those good at the subject. Of course this is one school 20+ years ago, but I would think this lack of differentiation in small classes where the school has had acceptable results longterm would be common . I think I would be concerned (probably more so if my child was in the struggling group with gaps in their knowledge). If it is affecting enjoyment of a subject I would be worried (again this maybe even more the case for the moved up children who maybe struggling).

exotic fruit I love the "face" idea.