Y2 Maths issues - reality check needed!

[gabid]

I am planning to go and see DS (6) headteacher as I think that DS is being taught maths below the level he is at. Am I overreacting?

My DS was a little behind with his maths last year and in the summer I decided to practice with him a bit, and since September we have practiced a bit every day. He has improved little by little, but things seemed to click for him in the last couple of weeks. He adds and subtracts 2 digit numbers and knows his 5 and 2s time tables (and is keen to learn more times tables! ).

DS is in a Y1 group and last week I have seen one of his maths lessons, his book and asked DS what he had done in maths. According to this he orders numbers (words) up to 20, number bonds to 10, adding up with 2 dices, and I saw calculations in his book (3+4, 10+4). He worked well in the lesson, he seemd to like the fact that he can do it easily, but I don't think he is learning anything. Shouldn't his teacher notice if a child can do more?

I spoke to his class teacher (not his maths teacher). She said DS often doesn't pay attention and therefore wouldn't be able to do the work in the Y2 class. Also, she said there are 37 in the Y2 class and she doesn't always have a TA. Did I misunderstand that 37!?

She told me what she is doing with the Y2s and that I could practice that with DS (partitioning, giving change). I explained partitioning to DS this weekend and he seems fine with it, just needs more practice. So, I am teaching maths to my DS now and the school tells me what to teach?

I am planning to go and see the HT next week as I don't think this is right and that the school should teach him at an appropriate level/differentiate and make provisions for him (I feel I have been told: sorry we can't teach your DS as he often doesn't listen and the Y2 class is full).

Any thoughts?

Sorry, is your dc in yr 1 or 2? is he being put down into a yr1 maths group or are you wanting him to move up (to the year aheads group)? Is he in a yr1/2 mixed class & you are considering a lower stream group, the year 1 group, as a majority of the group are yr1?

If they are streaming across the 2 years, do the only have 2 groups? If there's 37 in the top group, I think it sounds a bit like they really could do with a middle group to take the pressure off a bit. All the streams at my dcs school have at least 3 levels.

Tbh, I'm not sure I'd be talking to the head just yet. If you've already spoken to his class teacher, why not try the maths teacher? Check what his current levels are & what they predict him to get at the end of the year. Tell her/him that you've been doing a bit of extra work with him & that you think maths has clicked with him lately & ask what you need to do with him/what he needs to demonstrate to get into the top group.

I wouldn't go to the head after only a fortnight after speaking to the teacher. It smacks very much of "I didn't get what I wanted so I'll go to your boss". And unless there have been similar comments from other parents I would expect the head to have little to say on the subject, he won't know the child's maths ability unless he's their teacher, so he almost certainly will back up the teacher. Best he could say is that he will speak to the teacher, but it's going to cause resentment when she may well be keeping a particular eye on them anyway.

For some children, particularly those who struggle listening, they can produce much better stuff 1-2-1 at home than in a big class where there are more distractions.

I'm a mathematician, and my dd1 (11)is doing very well at maths. She listens well, she works hard and accurately and has always been top of the top group of 140 in a year.
Dd2 (8) I think is naturally better at maths. I've explained quite complicated stuff to dd1 to have dd2 (3 years younger) look over my shoulder and say "it's obvious"... ching ching... done it missing out a couple of steps. BUT dd2 does not listen as well, and is also quite capable of solving 2a +3 = 11, but may well do 2+1 and get 5. If I'm watching 1-2-1 then I can say "look at that again. If she's in a school group all the teacher may well see is a wrong answer. She is now in the top group, but hasn't always been, and I suspect may not achieve as well as dd1 because of their working habits.

Thanks for your comments! My DS is a young, immature Y2 boy and he is in a mixed Y1/2 class. In maths they have a lower Y1 set, a higher Y1 set with a few Y2s (DS is one of them) and a Y2 set with 37 children and not always a TA.

I tried to speak to his maths teacher in the first instance but was passed to the class teacher (maths teacher doesn't seem to be very personable according to class teacher).

Hm, we have asked for an appointment to see the HT this morning. I don't want to upset his teachers, but I think there seems to be a wider organisational and staffing issue there as well (with 37 6/7 year olds in one class and no TA). I do think that my DS would be struggling in such a big class as he doesn't listen and concentrate very well, and even with a TA it would be hard work for the two of them.

Its a good idea to ask for current levels and predictions for the end of year (but what should they be in Y2 though, if he was lower to middle Y2 ability what I assume he is at the moment).

I would like to suggest to the school to work a bit more closely with them and support DS by giving him some 1-2-1 and go over what they have done in school each week to make sure he understands. I have suggested they could put on their website what each class is doing each week (as a friend's school does). The listening is the main problem, I agree DeWe, this morning I got him to partition a few numbers (46=40+6) to practice place value which is sometimes a bit wobbly (we are bilingual German, so the numbers are back to front when I work with him) - fine, easy. Then I got him to half 2 digit numbers by drawing a little diagram and asked him to partition first and then half each number and add them. I kept telling him to partition first, but he decided to leave that out or do it in his head altogether. He got it wrong, so we practiced until he wrote down the diagram every time - then ge got it right! It's like pulling teeth. DS loves practicing his 5 times table, because he knows it, we are working on the 2x and he is keen to learn 3x, also he asked about dividing, so there is an interest and progress to be made.

I feel DS needs to play with bigger number (over 20) in school, also he needs time to play outside school and I can't do an hour of maths with him each day on top of reading and spellings, its too much for him. I know DS needs a bit of support, I am willing to do what I can, but the school needs to either differentiate, split the class, make sure there is a TA and engage with parents. Where would he be left at the end of the year if I did nothing? Well behind, in bottom set when he moves to Junior School in Sept?

Where are you? We have a class size pledge in England and Wales - no KS1 class can exceed 30.

We are in England, do you mean that no classes are allowed to be bigger than 30?

I work in secondary and there is the occasional class of 31, but if they are 32 they will be split. Not sure what the law is.

The legal limit for KS1 classes is 30. There are some exceptions to this which may take a school one or two children over - but 37?

at the 37 in a maths set with no ta!

With regard to the average level to reach at the end of (yr2) I think (but don't quote me,) the government has just put it up to 2a (was 2b,) so the average child in yr 2 should probably be on a 2c, (by Christmas).

Hope that helps.

They haven't put it up to a 2a - but that's the third time I've seen that on MN this weekend!

The expected level is a 2b, by the end of Y2. And that's what it's called - expected, not average.

We have made an appointment to see the Deputy HT (HT is off sick) on Wednesday afternoon.

So, if they should move 3 sub-levels in one academic year then he would be OK (achieving as expected) if he was at level 1c now? And what should he be able to do at that level? Is there a website that details that?

I just found some info about KS1 class sizes (Dep for Children and Families) from 2007, and there seem to be a very small number of classes with 36 or more children. I assume that relates to the class and not teaching sets. So I might be having a point raising the issue. And DS's class teacher may appreciate if a parent does?

If the top set is 37, then they will be very very very reluctant to put your son up. However it seems that they have some major organisational issues if they have 3 sets and one is this big (I assume it is a year 2 class with a few of the year 1/2 class added?).
They would in my opinion do much better to teach mixed ability in reasonable numbers but with proper differentiation. You can also ask about how they are assessing the progress of the children, and how often.

Thank you Feenie, I stand corrected!

If he was 1c at the end of year 1, the expectation is that they roughly go up 1/3 each term in ks1, so I would assume they are predicting him a 2c. (If he is currently a 1c, he may be close to a 1b & get there by Christmas). Have a look at the national curriculum website for more info on what they should be doing at each level.

With regard to the class size, are none of the parents with kids in that group concerned? I would be. Surely they should be split in 2 & even if they then only got to work with the teacher 1/2 the time & an experienced ta the other half that would make more sense to me. Have you got any mum friends with kids in that group you could talk to about it?

some of the things you are doing with him are way past the level he is working at school. curriculum level descriptors see here

reposing link

Feenie My DS is in yr 2 and has never been in a class of 30 for more than a couple of months. He starts each year in a class of 30 but by the end of the year it has always gone up to 31 or 32. Already this year by october his class was already at 32.

Yes, it can happen - appeals, or mistakes by admissions, etc. But 37 is taking the rise!

I love mumsnet, I will be able to go to see the school a lot more informed than I would be brooding here on my own.

The question is, what can I expect from the school. For my DS to go into a class of then 38 would be silly, he would hate it (he loves the current situation).
In his current class, as I saw, the Y2s are dotted all over the classroom, so there is no table with Y2s - should the teacher sit them together and differentiate properly (may be a possibility). Are the other Y2s in the same position though? I don't think I can expecty them to shuffle all the kids around mid year.

There are a couple of Y2 mums I am aquainted with but I wouldn't call them friends and I wouldn't discuss anything other than class size - that's a good point though.

I have not looked at the NC website yet, but I thought the information there was quite general, will look at the links later.

Hi gabid:

It sounds like you may need some help getting a general idea of what should be covered in each year. The Campaign for Real Education website has primary curriculum descriptions by subject for what a child should be covering in a given year. You can find the maths curriculum here www.cre.org.uk/docs/primary_maths_curriculum.pdf.

I agree with a lot of the other posts. It sounds like they have a glut of students in that 'top' group and perhaps they need to rethink sets across Y1, Y1/Y2 and Y2. I wouldn't come out and say that - but I would ask the HT or Deputy Head what provision they have in place for more able students.

Are there always 37 in the Y2 class or is this for maths streaming?

PastSellByDate - That sound a bit advanced for Y1? Timestables, calculating to 100 etc? Are you sure that is right?

mrz - its just for maths streaming.

That's how they can legally get away with such a large class ...bad practice and badly organised but legal

Joyn - Sorry, he was not a 1c at the end of Y1. What I meant was if level 2b is expected at the end of Y2 then he should be about 1a now.

I find the NC level descriptors quite vague, hard to work out what he should be able to do for level 1a, and I just notice that times tables don't appear until level 3? I thought they were being taught in Y2?

Children in mixed age classes should be being taught by ability, not year group. So, the year 2s should not all be sitting together, being taught separately from the Year 1s.

Sorry, got the wrong end of the stick! I've been finding it difficult to get all the info on targets etc too. Yesterday, blackeyedsusan wrote (on another thread,) about Ap grids & af strands, & while I haven't had a lot of time to look into these, I think you might find some useful info if you google them. They seem to refer to the 'I can do x' targets my dcs have in the front of their school books etc.

As for times tables, dd has been doing 2s & 5s in yr 1, although, it is now getting more formal (and important to know them,) for ds in yr3.

Hi Gabid:

and any other interested in Campaign for Real Education Guidance on what should be covered each school year www.cre.org.uk/primary_contents.html

First remember this is what they should be covering throughout the entirety of Year 1 - so up until end July.

I don't think they're saying able to calculate all numbers to 100 - they're saying able to count and recognise numbers to 100. Your DS should be able to count up to and count back from 100. He should be able to correctly identify any number between 1 and 100. The next stage is to recognise place values - so 51 would be 1 unit and 5 tens. If you were to point to the 5 in 51 your son should know that means 50.

Simple addition/ subtraction. Really thinking about able to add or subtract (take away) 1 - 9 from numbers up to 10, then numbers up to 30, and then beyond. Certainly possible for most to take from numbers up to 10 by end Y1.

Multiplication - quite clearly says for YEAR 1 now possible, but starting with easy times tables. So your child should first be introduced to concepts like odd and even numbers. Then possibly counting by 2s, 5s and 10s. Then they may be introduced to the idea of writing 5 x 2 instead of 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 - but understanding these are the same things.

My view is that this is all things Y1 should be getting to grips with and clearly do at many schools in our area - but I hasten to add my DDs school barely did this until late Y2. Certainly my eldest DD could barely do anything itemised on pp. 8-11 www.cre.org.uk/docs/primary_maths_curriculum.pdf by March Y2. Every school & child is different and your expectations as a parent may be different. The Campaign for real education is 'gold standard' and many schools/ teachers would not offer most of this.

I must say I'm surprised by your response Gabid - given you quite clearly outlined that your son does know his 5 & 2 times tables and is happily subtracting 2 digit numbers - I was trying to show you that it looks like he's quite advanced for most Y1s. (If he is Y1 - I was a bit confused which year you meant).

PastSellByDate - Ah, no my DS is Y2 and has recently managed addition and subtraction up to 20 (e.g. 8+9), seems to be happy to calculate further now (14+12, 27+6). I introduced times tables 5x and 2x, which he understood and knows now. His teacher said she is doing partitioning with her class and showed me examples where they partition numbers (e.g. 26=20+6) and then half them (half of 20 and then 6...). DS was fine with that but needs some practice.

Maybe I didn't read your post properly, but as well, I thought in Y1 they should master calculating with numbers 1-20.

Someone mentioned above that by the end of Y2 children are expected to reach NC level 2b. In the level description it states that they should get to grips and calculate to 100 for level 2.

In any case, I seem to be taking over teaching him maths and I don't think thats right! But I need to know if he is OK and if not I want to support him (not teach him).