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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

not sure I get the teacher's point? parent's evening

74 replies

workshy · 17/11/2011 23:41

had parent'e evening meeting with dd's teacher today

one of the comments on her end of year report said that she struggled to work as part of a group as she wanted to dominate, so I asked how she was doing and the response was

'on the whole she is much improved but in maths and science, if she disagrees with the group decision then she doesn't handle it very well and digs her heels in'

but if she is right and the rest of the group is wrong (which is usually the case when she does did her heels in) then why should she go with the group and be working down the wrong path?

she is in year 5 and was assessed at NC5a at the start of the year, is doing an hour a week at high school on a G&T maths program so is very confident in the subject and does get frustrated

what do I tell her as I really don't want to tell her that she needs to bend to the group even if she is 100% sure that they are wrong???

OP posts:

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SoupDragon · 18/11/2011 12:52

Not really. I think it's very common for children to be bossy and roughly 50% of those will be female.

crazygracieuk · 18/11/2011 14:09

If you watch The Apprentice you'll see as many bossy males and females.

mrz · 18/11/2011 17:15

Actually ASteepLearningCurve children are expected to have mastery of them by the end of reception so giving five extra years is a whole lot of slack.

ASteepLearningCurve · 18/11/2011 18:25

Stop digging in your heels and arguing, mrz ;-)

mrz · 18/11/2011 18:32

Why ASteepLearningCurve? even my ASD son had to learn that other people are entitled to an opinion

bruffin · 18/11/2011 18:40

"if you watch The Apprentice you'll see as many bossy males and females."

And who invariably wins? The quiet dignified ones who have won the others respect first. The bossy ones are kept in because the make good television and everyone wants them to fail!

breadandbutterfly · 18/11/2011 18:43

Sorry, not read whole thread, but i suspect it's because the school is trying to teach social skills as well as academic ones to your dd. Her academic skills are clearly great but her social ones need some work, is what they're tactfully trying to say. My dd had exactly the same stuff said in year 5 - the solution is a stretching, academic secondary school, where she'll be working with people equally confident - and correct - in their views, and she'll have to raise her game a bit to compete.

desertgirl · 18/11/2011 18:49

mrz, I can think of adults who struggle with both of these:

children are really expected to have full 'mastery of them' by the end of reception??

Feenie · 18/11/2011 18:54

Yes.

mrz · 18/11/2011 18:54

I know many adults who struggle with those desertgirl and yes the EYFS really expects young children to be secure in those skills by the end of reception

Feenie · 18/11/2011 18:55

Group discussion and interaction are actually academic skills too, breadandbutterfly, in English, under Speaking and Listening.

Feenie · 18/11/2011 18:56

So those skills are expected to be used across the curriculum.

CardyMow · 18/11/2011 22:20

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but how can anyone expect a child who KNOWS they are right, and the rest of the group are wrong, to back down and go with the WRONG answer the group are giving? I would NEVER have backed down when I knew I was right and the rest of the group were wrong at that age, and TBH not now as an adult either.

The only thing that has changed between me being 10yo and being 30yo is that I am much more able to argue my case now, and show the people that are wrong need to understand how to get to the answer better how to get there.

Probably why I wasn't very popular at school. I didn't CARE about being popular though - being RIGHT mattered matters so much more to me than popularity. Hasn't harmed my friendships as an adult though.

mrz · 18/11/2011 22:24

That isn't what the teacher is saying Hunty Cat ... it is about listening to others and discussing why she believes she is wrong rather than dismissing the ideas of the group

CardyMow · 19/11/2011 01:24

But what is WRONG with dismissing the ideas of the group if they are WRONG?

And what if the other dc in the group are dismissing her (correct) opinion? And the group is only allowed to give one collective answer, that is given the same mark for the whole group? Which might mean the correct person has to take a lower mark for this exercise than they would have got had it NOT been a group exercise. Which would make me feel very aggrieved, if I was the correct person. Maybe a vote would be democratic - but if 3 people believe the wrong answer is correct, and only 1 person knows the true answer, then they would be outvoted. I know this is true because it happened to me time and time again, yet if I was given the same set of questions I was able to get much higher marks.

I can spend much longer arguing something, and finding different ways to get my point across at 30yo than I could at 10yo...

Original poster

workshy · 19/11/2011 01:27

huntycat I like you lol :)

OP posts:

MigratingCoconuts · 19/11/2011 08:31

its wrong because one time, every now and then, you really will actually be wrong.

But if you have become so entrenched in believing you are so much brighter than everyone else that you'll not be able to listen to what they are saying.

I see this all the time at secondary school. Its particularly worse in sixth formers who get to A levels without any understanding that they can do wrong. Its a horrible type of arrogance that has been the undoing of some students. (not saying this is true of op's dd in any way!!!)

Far better to learn how to argue your case clearly and politely and then respect others by listening to them. The idea is that you shouldn't back down but you should be able to argue against the opposing ideas to win over opposition

SoupDragon · 19/11/2011 08:33

For a start, this is primary school - any marks really don't matter. The point is that, even though the others are wrong, it is better and more instructive for them to find out that they are wrong rather than being told by some bossy know it all (and I include my own children in this description). If the Bossy Know It All wants to make it clear to the teacher afterwards that they knew the right answer but couldn't persuade the others, fine. I bet the teacher already knows this though. From this point of view, the learning experience for the Bossy Know It All is how to work in a group and value other opinions - since they already know the subject matter they haven't lost any learning opportunities in this respect.

When helping my children with stuff, I have to let them make their own mistakes. e.g. I know that if you build a brick tower where you alternate the brick orientation is stronger than one where you have them all the same way but the only way for a child to really learn this is to go on and find out for themselves once they've been told not by being forced to do it my way, dammit. Its the same with homework. I could tell them how to do stuff that would get them fabulous marks. This would be wrong. They have to do it their own way, even if it is wrong/not as good. As the Bossy Know It All, I can only prompt and try to persuade.

MigratingCoconuts · 19/11/2011 08:36

thing is, I think its an important to learn these skills now, in year 5, when you are a big fish in a little pond and adolesence isn't mixed up in the equation.

it can get a whole lot worse when you get to secondary, are in with a whole bunch of people actually brighter than you, and the rules start changing around you as everyone becomes a teenager.

Negotiation skills will really help then...

SoupDragon · 19/11/2011 08:40

I agree - DS1 has gone from primary where he was amongst the brightest to secondary where he is average amongst very bright people.

bruffin · 19/11/2011 09:35

Both DCs (years 9 & 11) did STEM days last week

DD's year had to make propelled gliders. DD's team glider was second fastest, but won it overall because of teamwork.

DS's year did something to do with high capacitor cars, they got the fastest car but only came 2nd because they got less points for team work and design.

So it is a good thing to learn that if you are right, you might not come out the "winner" if everything else is not in place ie the ability to work in a team.

singersgirl · 19/11/2011 09:40

DS2 sounds very like Soupdragon's DS (we too have had those homework 'discussions') and the OP's daughter. He's Y 6 now and I specifically asked if he can be given problems to which there is no one right answer (not just maths), which require the acceptance of differing valid viewpoints, and problems that are too hard for him so he can learn it's ok to be wrong. He also scored lower for Speaking and Listening than anything else, because of the 'listening' part. I think it's vital he learns to compromise, to adapt his ideas to others and to persuade, not badger.
Group work can be challenging for stubborn bright children but the social aspect of it is hugely important.

Groovee · 19/11/2011 13:53

Quite often with 10 year olds is not what they are saying but the way they are saying it. Dd's friend recently said something to dd in my hearing. What she was saying didn't bother me but the attitude and tone which came across with it. I realised that if I had to put up with that every day I'd be fed up like dd is too of this friend at the moment. Unfortunately her friend hasn't grasped it's her tone and tends to dig her heels in even when being proven wrong and it what children of this age group do and they need guidance in how to deal with it.

Learning to work as part of a team and getting your point across can take years and some people are still crap at it at age 40! But it's a learning curve for everyone regardless of age.

cory · 20/11/2011 11:35

when dd was in Yrs 2 and 3, her school reports came back with remarks very similar to this, about how she spoke in class and stated her views. It was not criticism, it was pointing out an area where she still had some learning to do. The school was not expecting her to stop using her brain, but to speak so other people would listen. She did learn this and it has made secondary school so much easier for her.

I wish someone had done the same for me.

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