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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

not sure I get the teacher's point? parent's evening

74 replies

workshy · 17/11/2011 23:41

had parent'e evening meeting with dd's teacher today

one of the comments on her end of year report said that she struggled to work as part of a group as she wanted to dominate, so I asked how she was doing and the response was

'on the whole she is much improved but in maths and science, if she disagrees with the group decision then she doesn't handle it very well and digs her heels in'

but if she is right and the rest of the group is wrong (which is usually the case when she does did her heels in) then why should she go with the group and be working down the wrong path?

she is in year 5 and was assessed at NC5a at the start of the year, is doing an hour a week at high school on a G&T maths program so is very confident in the subject and does get frustrated

what do I tell her as I really don't want to tell her that she needs to bend to the group even if she is 100% sure that they are wrong???

OP posts:

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pictish · 18/11/2011 09:44

Nulgirl is right.

G&T she may be...but she's not the boss. You don't get to tell other people what to do because you're clever. This is about her developing on her social skils, which is every bit as important as being academically sound.

The teacher is telling you that your dd's approach to others needs work. It's not a criticism...or, if it is, it's a constructive and useful one. Take it as such. x

CailinDana · 18/11/2011 09:46

I've taught children like this and I really feel for them because they can alienate other children with their attitude. I don't think it's too much to expect a Yr5 to work well in a group but I do think children this age need quite a bit of help and guidance, especially the opinionated ones.

ragged · 18/11/2011 09:50

Presumably she will spend her whole life having to deal with people who are dimmer than her? So worthwhile to learn some charm skills, or she's in for a rather rough ride. No one will listen to you, even if you are usually right, if you don't put your case across well speaking from ample experience.

SoupDragon · 18/11/2011 09:50

Year 3 "When DS2 is given responsibility he rises to the challenge. However, he needs to understand that others must also be given chance to show what they can do. When dealing with these feelings of disappointment, DS2 can become stubborn and withdrawn..."

"DS2 can be a supportive partner to those who do not share his level of understanding but he needs to make sure that he is just as willing to work alongside those who do not share his point of view."

Year 4 "DS2 is very competitive and is working hard to develop his abilities as a team player, He must continue to develop his collaborative skills by listening to his peers' ideas and compromising more readily"

Year 5 "when working on a group learning task, DS2 is often willing to let others take the lead yet can be frustrated if his idea are not listened to, preferring to stick to his own opinion or taking himself away from the group.... this has improved throughout the year and he is now farm ore willing to listen to others' opinions and recognised the benefits of compromise"

I happen to have his last three reports in front of me for a school application. :) Any of this sound familiar to the OP? He is also exceptionally bright and usually right. This doesn't mean he can run roughshod over his peers.

nulgirl · 18/11/2011 09:52

These type of skills can be very difficult for children and adults to learn. It is so important as an adult though as most situations (outside of exams) both work and personal tend to be 'greyer' and there is no right answer. The most successful people understand where others are coming from and negotiate a solution so people don't feel bulldozed.

BoffinMum · 18/11/2011 09:53

They used to say things like that about me, but I know for a fact that THEY WERE ALL COMPLETELY WRONG AND STOOPID!

nulgirl · 18/11/2011 09:59

I know Boffinmum. I struggle with it too and seethe inside when I see people do things which I think are wrong. I am trying to be more diplomatic though it doesn't always work

spiderpig8 · 18/11/2011 10:08

She needs to let others have their say , and then if she disagrees with them,put together a convincing argument to persuade them around to her way of thinking.
I think the teacher is trying to tell you she is a bossy britches!

Original poster

workshy · 18/11/2011 10:09

can I just comment on a few points
Where does it say there is no encouragement and support? There is certainly none from the child's mother as she does not see it as a problem.

well actually I do see it as a problem which is why I have had several conversations with her about listening to other people's ideas, highlighting people's strengths etc and in subjective subjects she is much improved and this has been commented on by the teachers. My difficulty is not with encouraging her to work in a team, it's accepting that just because the other 3 people in her group say the answer is one thing, then she should back down and accept it?

I have worked with her on explaining her reasoning behind a decision clearly and using phrases such as 'I understand what you are saying but...' 'have you thought about doing it this way' 'what do you think would happen if...?'
but when you have 3 ten year olds in a group with you who are all trying to compete with you and prove a point then how are you supposed to handle that?

I have asked the school what they are doing to support and they said 'we are working on it'

she has been selected by the school to be a peer mentor, working with the kids that struggle socially which would lead me to think she doesn't struggle

I have witnessed her in a mixed ability group doing a quiz and they all said 'I want to be in K's group because she is the cleverest in the school' and then sat there and let her answer every single question -is it really her job at 9 (as she was at the time) to say 'come on everyone, join in and answer the questions' -she wasn't pushing herself forward to do it, they were just sitting there waiting for her to answer!

from reception the comments were that she was excellent at working in a group, could change the way she explained things to broaden people's understanding, was a very supportive group member and a natural teacher

so what happened inbetween reception and Yr5?

and I find the comment about her being like margaret thatcher personally offensive

OP posts:

nulgirl · 18/11/2011 10:17

On one hand you're saying that you have noticed a problem and then you say that she really doesnt have a problem. No one here knows your dd so really can't comment. It is good that you are working on it with her.

The reason that it may not have been an issue in reception is that surely they are being assessed on age-appropriate responses so what may be acceptable at the age of 5 is not appropriate at 10.

SoupDragon · 18/11/2011 10:21

Sorry, you've misunderstood the Margaret Thatcher comment. I wasn't saying your child was like MT but that MT was probably a child who, like yours (and indeed all three of mine!), was unable to easily work in a group and listen to others. It was in response to the "running the country" comment. Being unable to see and accept other opinions as being valid is not a good character trait for a leader. DS1 (12.5) has learnt the skill, as I hope the others will - clearly MT did not.

"but if she is right and the rest of the group is wrong (which is usually the case when she does did her heels in) then why should she go with the group and be working down the wrong path?" and "what do I tell her as I really don't want to tell her that she needs to bend to the group even if she is 100% sure that they are wrong???"

These does not imply that you see it as a problem at all, quite the contrary. This is what I based my comment on.

I hope that clears it up :)

Original poster

workshy · 18/11/2011 10:21

what I'm saying is that she has a problem with non subjective subjects where there is a black or white answer ie maths and science

in subjective subjects it needed a mention and is now resolved

in her personal life, friendship groups etc -she doesn't have a problem

OP posts:

SoupDragon · 18/11/2011 10:23

"she has been selected by the school to be a peer mentor, working with the kids that struggle socially which would lead me to think she doesn't struggle"

This is a red herring. DS2 is the most confident sociable child you could meet. He breezes into any situation and talks to anyone and everyone (child and adult alike) with the utmost confidence. He is the child whose report excerpts I posted below.

SoupDragon · 18/11/2011 10:26

With the black and white thing, you need to explain that others need to work through their thoughts on a subject to reach a conclusion. It may not be the right conclusion but the journey is the important part (certainly at this age). By working it through and finding out that, actually, they were wrong they learn that they were wrong and why rather than just being told "do it like this".

SoupDragon · 18/11/2011 10:29

I can see this from the perspective of the "I am right, do it my way" child (my three) and the others (I was the quiet, unconfident child at school).

Original poster

workshy · 18/11/2011 10:30

the comments about her not working well in a group were new to her yr4 end of year report -it has never been a problem previously and is not something that has travelled up the school with her

OP posts:

SoupDragon · 18/11/2011 10:37

At our primary they change how they work when they move to KS2. They seem to work independently in small groups more without the constant involvement of a teacher/TA.

pictish · 18/11/2011 10:49

Then maybe it's a recent manifestation of her personality while in group settings? Maybe she's getting cocky, for example?

Either way you are taking it too much to heart. the teacher has told you she is domineering in group situations...that's it. Just a few words in her shell-like is all that is required. There's no need for all this navel gazing and worry.

My son is doing brilliantly at school academically, but has to be kept apart from his two pals or they descend into utter silliness. I have never seen this occur myself, but took the teacher's word for it, as she is the one there observing it. Why would I dispute it?

Your dd's manner is clearly not getting her point across effectively, without irritating the others. That is what you are being told....not that she has to agree with wrong answers.

My son is disruptive at times....I accept that and support the teacher. Your dd is a bossy boots...get over it, and show her better.

SharkieLeRouge · 18/11/2011 11:10

I have visions of a group of children cowering under the wrath of the OP's DD!

I suppose it depends on the task, (rather than necessarily the subject).

If they are sitting in a group, and working out the answer to a question and the answer is 5 and the group shout your daughter down and say '3', then yep I see your point.

However, even in maths and science, sometimes the group tasks involve more subjective activities, where the answer involves devising the methods to solve questions, rather than simple yes/no answers and this is where the social negotiation comes into it.

Her responses could be to not feeling heard and listened to, and feeling shouted down by others. The last voice in an argument is often the one that gets into trouble!

SoupDragon · 18/11/2011 11:13

In DS2s case it would be a group of children working happily, if wrongly, and a small bundle of fury venting their frustration, loudly, somewhere else.

pictish · 18/11/2011 11:18

I think it's very common for girls to be quite bossy isn't it?

My friend's dd is absolutely charming and very bright, but my friend was told of her similarly domineering nature at parent's evening too. Quite a similar set up as the Op's daughter.

My friend took it on board, as she knows her dd can be stubborn and at times overbearing - particularly if she knows herself to be in the right. In fact, I think a LOT of us suffer from the same affliction!

It's just a case of talking her down a little OP - it's not a terrible slight against your girl at all.
It'll all come out in the wash. xx

SharkieLeRouge · 18/11/2011 11:21

I think it's very common for girls to be quite bossy isn't it?

Bit of a generalisaton there Pictish!

BoffinMum · 18/11/2011 12:23

Just tell her to be nice to the little people. Worked for me.

crazygracieuk · 18/11/2011 12:49

I think it's hard to work well in teams.

Ds1 is apparently very bossy even though he's usually wrong.

Dd should apparently speak up and not be bullied to go along with the groupbecause she probably knows the right answer.

Ds2 is apparently too laid back and shouldn't leave the work to others.

How does she react when the others don't do as she suggests? If she shouts or has tantrums then maybe she needs to rethink her strategy. Having observed kids in that age group- it seems that either a bossy person gets their way or the group votes and does the most popular idea. It's not easy to get a group of your peers to listen to your idea and be persuaded that you are right but if you can learn that then she'd make a good CEO or PRime Minister.

dearheart · 18/11/2011 12:51

"I think it's very common for girls to be quite bossy isn't it?"

"Bit of a generalisaton there Pictish!"

Oh but so true!

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