Is there any reason why I shouldn't avoid totally any face to face meetings

[JaneBirkin]

with our HT?

She keeps on and on about having a meeting about my child starting school (mid year start) and how it will be organised. I have already told her countless times that it would be preferable to me to start with half days for a couple of weeks, then straight in.
She cannot seem to come up with any other good reason to have an actual proper meeting about it. At least she won't tell me if she has.

I have managed to fob her off so far but she came and stood RIGHT in my face yesterday and said she wanted a meeting next week to discuss this. I said why and she flanneled a bit. I eventually agreed though I will have ds with me, which I don't want to do.

I suspect she wants me in private so she can discuss other things, like the fact I really don't like her and refuse to smile heartily each morning and say hello, though she makes a massive show of saying it loudly to my children as we pass.

We don't get on. I detest her. She wants me to obey and curtsey and all the rest, and I won't. The thought of going into her little office makes me feel sick.

So is there any reason why I shouldn't email and say, look, please can we do this by email, I don't have time for a meeting (I actually don't, honestly, even if I wanted one) and just refuse to go into school to speak to her about something so minor without anyone else in the room? Will I risk my children being booted out of school?

I should add, before you all think I'm nuts, that I am far from aggressive, but this HT and I go back a few years and have had what you might term several conflicts of opinion including one involving a governor-level complaint (reluctantly). She detests me as much as I detest her.

Also I am completely in accordance with the other meeting requirements - class teachers are great, I always turn up for those, no problem. It's only her.

It sounds to me as if you are not ready to contemplate the idea that it might be in everyone's best interest if you clear the air and have a grown up discussion with her especially if she knows you detest her?

I think her approach is professional if you ask. Are there any particular reasons why your child is tarting mid-year? Is she home educated? Maybe HT simply wants to know what stages of development she's at, or if you have any concerns with her schooling.

It sounds to me as if you will have to be the bigger person and meet with her once to have a rational discussion and see what she wants. It is her job.

I suspect revenge in some petty way, for your insubordinate behaviour...... probably she wants to strong arm you into starting your child at a different time/way from what you feel would be best.

Meeting you in her office put her in the position of power. Everything will be nicey nicey on the surface, of course.

Probably you are going to look a little unreasonable if you don't agree. Keep working on these phrases "No, I don't feel that would be the best start for my DC", "I feel very strongly that it's best for my DC to start school at X week, part time", etc.

If you really feel unable to face her alone, insist on the phone/email contact - a valid request if you have serious back history.

Thankyou both. I don't think it's revenge exactly; I think she wants me in her office though as that is where people get summoned to when she wants to get one over on them. Sorry, but she is the most underhand and devious and superficially professional person I have ever encountered.
You will just have to take my word for it, sorry

I know what will happen. I will go in, she will be all nicey nicey (as you say, Oldmum) and I will be forced into reasonable politeness (which I am fine with with everyone else but she disturbs me). She will then TELL me that I need to clear the air and be grown up about things, as she is trying to be professional and it is so important that we have a good relationship.

I will disagree but it will be pointless as she will have said her thing and feel that she has won. Again.

Clearing the air is not possible, as she has used incredibly unfair tactics on many occasions and I do not trust her one inch. This is why I refuse to be nicey nicey. I just walk past, looking at the ground. I cannot bring myself to smile at someone I resent so much. I like the school and I like the teachers, but I do not like or trust her.

Sorry if this does sound nuts. I find the whole thing really difficult.

'Meeting you in her office put her in the position of power. Everything will be nicey nicey on the surface, of course.'

Yes exactly. As yesterday too when she stood right in front of me, essentially in my personal space so I felt incredibly uncomfortable. I believe this was entirely deliberate; the other week she approached and asked with a strangled look of mock concern whether she had 'upset me'. I said 'yes' without any expression.

I then said there was not much point discussing it now and what could I do for her. She said she wanted a meeting, bla bla bla. I said no, she said well we'll have to have one in term two.

I know she is very insecure (thus the job - to make everyone 'respect' her and do what she says) but it's not my problem. I think email would sort it out fine - his class teacher to be has been very happy with email, and we have already discussed what will happen. Class teacher is FINE with it. So it is an excuse to bulldoze me. She does it to everyone.

Is there another school you could send your child to? Whoever is at fault here, I don't think this a healthy relationship to have with your child's headteacher.

well, technically there are several schools they could both go to. But I don't like any of the other schools particularly, or the ones I do don't have two spaces in the right year groups, or didn't a few months ago when I checked, and ds1 is really, really reluctant to leave his friends (I know, I've asked him a few times as he knows I don't like the HT much - he doesn't mind her or see much of her, she is generally nice with the kids).

I realise it's far from ideal. I just don't know what to do about it other than avoid contact with her where possible, and where it's unavoidable be polite and businesslike. I don't attack her or insult her. I just try to avoid her. Most people at the school find her quite difficult in some respects but because it remains a good school in spite of her, or possibly in some ways I'll admit she might be running it reasonably well, then they don't want to move their kids either, so they just stay polite and nice.

I've had the misfortune, or maybe the guts/sense of outrage to be in a position a few times where the other parents have allowed me to speak for them in order to try and get the general view across. This was partly what happened with the complaint. Hardly anyone was happy but hardly anyone wanted to speak out so I did. And the price I've paid is to now be in this situation whereby I have seen how she operates at first hand and really dislike it.

But we are settled here and a part of the school community and I don't see that moving ds away from his friends can be a good thing for him. Maybe ds2 could start somewhere else, instead of at the same school - logistically far from ideal, but it woul;d at least save another seven years of not wanting to move him.

Sadly, sounds just like the HT of the primary school my DS attended..... I posted as the situations sound similar - high staff turnover, lots of bullying behaviour towards staff, parents and pupils (by the HT!). For years (some staff were actually succesfull in taking the HT to a tribunal over bullying behaviour). Still in the job tho!

We too complained, and paid for it - our 2 younger DS paid for it. Everything always done in such a way that if you complain, it's you, the parent who looks like you are in the wrong. Other parents too scared to speak out as they know DC will suffer for it. School performs very well, but in my opinion, because of it's very above average (socioeconomically) parents.

We did stick with the school for a number of years, but the difference to my DS3 when he changed schools was huge, and made us realise how grim things had been at school for him.

I think you should have the meeting. It's about your child, which is obviously the priority, so let her do the talking, make sure she understands your response, get it over with and then move on.

It's going to be in her office because that's where I'd expect a HT to meet a parent - in a private space. If you feel she's moving on to other areas, you can simply say "I'm here to discuss x and would rather not discuss anything outside of that."

From what you say she's good with the kids, seems a fairly effective head teacher (if not in her relations with parents!) and you like the teachers, so to your move your child sounds a bit drastic imo.

Have you thought about using completely different tactics? How about you go in and be really smiley and nicey, nicey, putting her on the back foot straight away. Agree to what she wants and then tell her how you want it to be for your child's best interests. Let her think that she should be cautious with you because of your change in behaviour. If you carry on the way it is you will always feel the way you do and she will not change. So you change, on presentation level, and feel more in control.

Be the person you want to be.

Good luck!

I think you should have the meeting, but perhaps arrange for a third party to be there also?

Just a general point - be careful about always being the 'spokesperson' for other parents. Other people will use that and let you do their dirty work. [Experience from work meetings long ago in my naive 20s!].
You probably do need to go to the meeting. Have you got a partner who could go with you or perhaps instead of you?

Very good ideas, thankyou all. (I seem to be leaning on MN an awful lot this last week, for which I apologise!)

Tethers, that's my instinct too but I don't think she would take kindly to it. It's almost just the thought of her being able to say whatever she likes in that room, knowing I do not have the mental processing speed fully to understand what she is trying to put across, or achieve, and she is so tricksy and devious that it will doubtless ONLY be for her benefit - I mean, it's not even about ds. It's about her getting me to agree to be put in my place and listen to her edict for 15 minutes while no one else is listening.

I know it sounds cynical but it isn't, at all...we have literally nothing to sort out. Nothing. We wouldn't have had this meeting if he had started school in September so she is using it as an excuse to try and tell me what to do, I think it's called asserting her authority without which she naturally feels very vulnerable. She suggested it immediately after I had walked past her trying to avoid eye contact. So I know what is driving it.

Had I a partner I would probably ask them to submit to it instead, especially if I knew they were more astute than I and able to hold the cynical viewpoint while staying in the moment. I can't and she knows it/ I cannot bear pretence, smileyness when you both clearly hate one another and there's no mutual respect. I can't do it.

It is an interesting thought, changing tactic, but that isn't me. I'm not afraid of her, far from it, but I do actively dislike her.

If she emails about when we are having a meeting, as she said she would, I might reply asking whether there is anything she wishes to discuss specifically and if so that she could put it in an email as I feel honestly this is more level ground and gives me time to respond once I have thought about it.

Nothing wrong in being honest...and that's how I feel. So do you think this would be a good starting point?

I really, really don't think I can face the meeting.

2boys - yes, I will be careful from now on! It seems to be becoming a pattern, they know I'm quite, well, direct. I wish I could be as direct with men!

oldmum, it does sound a similar dynamic but perhaps worse in the instance you describe. I'm sorry that happened to you and your children. I don't think our HT takes it out on mine - if she did we would be out like a shot. she knows people would be right onto her. It's the parents she doesn't 'do' iyswim. Sounds like you were very right to move your ds.

Contact the LEA and see if they have an advocacy service or parents group who can provide someone to attend the meeting with you.

If the head refuses to meet with a third party present, that simply speaks volumes about her motives, and will make her look unreasonable. She is not in a position to insist that you attend the meeting alone.

In all honesty I don't think I'd bother engaging with her at all. If she emails to arrange a meeting reply that you don't think one is necessary, you have already agreed arrangements x y & z with the class teacher and you believe those arrangements to be in your daughter's best interests. End. Repeat as necessary. By fgiving her her all this headspace you are giving her power over you. Take it back. Do not engage.

That's true, Tethers. And I know she wants to say, 'Can I just say that it's really important that the children see that we get along, so if you could please bear that in mind, I'm not a nasty old ogre' etc etc etcc

basically to 'make' me be nice and smiley to her whether I want to or not. She doesn't want to feel that someone doesn't like her. And it's very clear that I don't, I think. But that's my prerogative not to pretend, as long as I am polite...the meetings always make me feel like a 7 year old child, and that's what she wants.

Actually saying this, she did say she would mention it to the YR teacher, so possibly she will be there too. HT didn't actually say this. Perhaps I can ask the class teacher and see if she feels the need for a meeting. If she is there I can probably cope with it, but I would rather just meet with the class teacher tbh.

Ask for the class teacher to be present as obviously she is important re any discussion of easing your child into school.

I think that agreeing to a 3-way meeting between you, the Reception teacher and the HT (but not a 2-way meeting with the HT) would be a good way forward.

So e-mail both, saying that the HT has requested a meeting and as it is about the precise details of your child's start at school you feel it would be most appropriate and useful to have the Reception teacher present, especially as you have already discussed these matters with the Reception teacher.

State in the e-mail to both that you need the meeting to be at a time that both staff can make, and also a time when you have childcare for your LO (it would be best to meet without them present - if there are any negative vibes, then it would be as well for your child not to pick them up IYSWIM). Also lay out what you understand the agenda to be - 'It is my understanding that we need to formally agree x, y and z, which have already been informally agreed', and send this in writing in the e-mail, requesting that if the HT wishes to discuss other matters then you would ask her to add them to this agenda so that you can bring in appropriate information / prepare what needs to be prepared so that this can be a productive meeting.

It may be that the HT calls the meeting off at this point, in which case fine. If not, then you have a very clear focus to keepo bringing the meeting back to. If she does the 'why don't you like me' thing - say 'it's not on the agenda we agreed, I thought we were here to discuss my child's entry to school'.

The advocacy idea is a good one too. Do you have a friend you could take along?

Ooh Tethers this is very good indeed. Can I copy and paste that and keep it for a while please? I think I'll find it really useful.

You obviously have a good handle on this sort of thing!
Ok, when I get the email from her I will do as you suggest.
There is a problem in that I do not have childcare this term at all. Not unless there was an emergency in which case my mum would step in but she can't do it for a school meeting.

Maybe he can go in and play with the class or TA or someone while we meet.

HT wanted to meet just after drop off or before pick up which is not suggestive of the class teacher being present, really...so if I can ask for her to be there it will cut down the times available significantly and hopefully delay things a bit till I'm not so Gotdam busy as well

Thankyou all very much for all this brilliant advice and thinking. I'm not the best at seeing the bigger picture.

Sorry I don't know you but can DC's other parent not go to the meeting instead? The HT gets her meeting (tick that box), you don't give way on starting date (tick that box), you don't have to put up with unpleasant feelings etc (tick that box).

I'd love to take the credit, but the post with the great advice was from teacherwith2kids

YIKES! I'm so sorry! My eyes are playing up again!

So sorry, Teacherwith2kids. I could SWEAR I looked at your name and saw 'Tethersend' written there.
In my defence I have got ds2 climbing on my lap trying to have 'milkies' (he is 4.5) and am tearing my hair out with ds1 in a mince pie situation so not properly focused.

Apologies. And thankyou Tethers for pointing it out!
VCATM, that's a great idea actually but ds's other parent isn't i touch with us, so I would feel odd asking him to do it. I guess I could send a pretend man though. I mean a pretend ds2's parent, an actual man of course

Are you at my school? I wouldn't be surprised! (Seriously - a Tower Hamlets school?)

I was trying to think of what I'd do and it's probably speak to people who have been supportive of me in the past at the school and ask them what they think.

But if you can't do that, then ask the class teacher to arrange it. Insist she's there, otherwise just keep repeating "We will do this by email" -- if pressed, it's so you have a record of what's agreed. If she does agree to the class teacher being there, then walk out when you get to the meeting and for some reason the teacher can't make it: "I'm sorry that your schedule didn't work out, we can speak about this later."

If you think you might be at my school, then pm me!

Do you think the hT would notice if I sent my Granny?

Really tempted to send someone. You have inspired me.