Advice needed- year 3 DD unable to write/grasp numbers... don't know what to do

[Dreameronastar]

Don't know if this is the right place to post- but any advice would be greatly appreciated.

My DD is 7 and just gone into year 3- up until August for various reasons, she was living with my ex and his partner a great distance away- I didn't see much of her. I haven't been able to look after her as a single parent for a few years for health reasons I don't really want to go into- let's just say I feel terrible about it but I can't go back, I can only try and help DD as much as possible now I am well.

Again, don't want to go into this too much, but I now have sole custody of DD and she has had a pretty horrible time with my ex; has been given very little attention particularly in terms of school work, and I haven't really been in a position to be keeping an eye on things until now. Anyway, the bottom line is, it became clear to me when she moved in with me over the summer that DD really has no concept of numbers and how they work at all. She can count to 100 because she knows what comes next if that makes sense, but ask her what 2+3 is and she is stuck- she can memorize facts but has no concept at all of why, how, etc. We have tried using counters etc so she can 'see' what is happening to the numbers, but still she just doesn't understand. And then there is her writing- she has lovely handwriting and can actually read beyond what she should be doing at this point... when she recognises the word. She seems to have built up a decent repatoire of words simply by memorizing letter patterns, but when she comes across a word she hasn't memorized, even something simple like 'poppy' or 'harvest', she simply does not know how to sound it out. She cannot write at all unless she is copying out- has to have the letter pattern in front of her if that makes sense. It's as if she cannot recognise phonics or remember them to write them out herself. Apparently this is not dissimilar to learning Chinese characters as there is no such thing as a phonic- you just learn which sound to associate with which character. DD does actually speak, read and write Cantonese as my ex is Chinese, though I don't so I have no idea whether she has the same problem with this.

The school have been helpful to an extent but nothing is working with her so far and I suspect they are running out of things to try, judging by their attitude. They have suggested to me more than once that it is due to lack of support in the early years which obviously I feel terrible about, but I also know that until no I have been in no fit state to look after DD. I'm not interested in who is to blame here, I just want to help DD learn to read and write properly, and get her head around numbers! To me, the fact that she is able to recognise memorized letter patterns is proof she is not just 'thick', but for whatever reason something isn't going in or working for her. And I just feel such a responsibility to sort it all out for her.

Isn't there a bilingual topic? Might be worth posting there. You must be proud she can speak two languages

Sorry I can't be much help, but it's early days in your dd's school career, and I'm sure she will soon start to grasp phonics etc. Sounds like the school are not being very helpful. Are you sure they are definitely trying to "blame" you for this, or is it just because you feel so guilty? If they are trying to blame you, that's not on and it's non of their business.

Thanks SirHumphrey- will try over there. :) Trouble is, I have no knowledge of Chinese whatsoever, so I'm not entirely sure she can! I do think a lot of her writing problems may stem from very little English going on at home during the first 3 years of her schooling, but her spoken English is actually very good. The problems start when she has to think for herself and not rely on memorized patterns

In terms of 'the blame' I don't think it's me blaming myself because they are aware of the past situation and my condition and seem to blame my ex :) Which is fine by me. Though I'm beyond the point of wanting to pass the blame, unfortunately it's not going to help DD :(

She'll probably come on really quickly, just like a child of 7 who started to learn a new language would. I'm surprised at the school running out of ideas, surely they should just help her to read until she learns?

Glad to see no blaming going on (except the ex!)

Look for a phonics tutor and also for someone to start at the beginning with maths.

You say your 7 year old dd can speak,read and write Cantonese, so that should tell you that she has had plenty of attention paid to that aspect of her education, which she was has been capable of learning. So now she has to learn to red and write an entirely new language that may not work quite the way she expects!
Is she competent in English language speaking by the way?
We are now in beginning of November and your dd has been in her school since September? And the school 'is running out of ideas' and how convenient that they know enough about her early years to say that is the cause of the present difficulty!!
There is no quick fix to learning - systematic instruction in the things she does not know, and plenty of opportunity to practise! Follow mathanxiety's advice, or teach her yourself. For teaching beginning reading there are many good synthetic phonics programmes available. Pick one to suit your pocket (eg Phonics International or BRI readers from Piper Books are good value)or get a tutor who will supply the materials and the instruction

I don't think this is anything to do with knowing chinese.

If she has been at school for 3 years it's not fair to blame your ex either. Actually reading, writing and numbers should be taught at school. You will normally make quicker progress if the parent helps - but even without parental help she should still have made lots of progress.

Has she been at the same school since reception? If so I would move her. As soon as I can. Their attitude that it's your ex's fault is shocking and disgraceful.

It's not clear to me whether the dd is at a new school or still the school where her father lives?

Okay I would be worried about the school. Is it private?
Go to the school and request a meeting with the SENCo. Then discuss with the SENCo what the school is going to do and how they suggest you help her. I would also keep a written record of anything they say they will do. If it is a state school you can also contact your local Parent Partenship
The school cannot shift all blame onto you because of your DDs lack of progress. Have you in fact spoken to anyone except the class teacher? If not you may find other professionals more helpful.
Do not blame yourself. You may need to re-teach your daughter how to learn. The key thing to work on first is that she feels: safe and secure. Show her how proud you are of any of her achievements, praise her for trying.
Does the school know about her difficult background? If not this is something else to discuss with the SENCo, as they may be able to offer help.

Remember she has years yet to make up lost ground. The key thing is to help her feel secure and loved, then build on the confidence to try regardless of whether she succeeds at first. From this she will be able to begin to learn.
Do also read to her lots and lots in English!

I am really sorry to hear of your health problems which meant you weren't able to give your Dd the support you wanted to give her. But take heart, she is still young and can catch up. And you are motivatedto help, so that is a greatstart.

You are right to oark the blame game. Who cares what has happened in the past? Just focus on going forward and getting her the best support you can.

The bilingual thing is probably a red herring.
Lots of children grow up speaking two languages, and many successfully learn to write and read in both, too. So having two languages should notnstop her learning the basics of reading, writing and numeracy.

There are lots of questions which are not answered in your OP.

Is she in the same school?
Is she leaning Cantonese and English at school? Or just one? And has this changed since she came back to you?

I agree with seeing SENCO and in the meantime, I would start from scratch with both phonics and numeracy at home. Start as if she has no sight knowledge of words with the Jolly Phonics scheme. Given her age and maturity, you will be able to whizz through the sounds and letter correspondancesmin a matter of days / weeks. Then she will have the tools to start decoding, in addition to her word recognition.

With numeracy, I would similarly start with basics, using sweets or fruit or Pokemon cards (or whatever thing your Dd happens to beinto). Definitely something visual and relevant to her. Start with addition and subtraction.

If you can afford a tutor in both phonics and numeracy, it might be a good short term option until the school work out what extra support she needs / they can offer.

Good luck.

Well of course somebody's to blame here and it is mainly the school. Regardless of the language spoken at home, you DD should have learned to read and write in English at school. If she's still at the same school I would change her.

Assuming that your DD does not have any SEN, then I think it is absolutely disgraceful that the school has not taught her.

Surely phonics are taught at school? I have never taught phonics to my own children.

I would have a meeting with the head and go through old notes and progress charts to see how they have been tracking her progress and what they have been actively doing to support her so far since Reception.

Hello, My DC are 9were) bilingual and were educated in a different language until DS1 was 6. We then moved to the UK, and he really struggled having missed YR and part of Y1.

we muddled along for 2 years. Then I got a tutor for him (don't know if that is an option for you?) who took him all the way back to the start (Key Stage one spellings, he was in Y3 by then).

I also pushed the school to assess him properly, as they just said "oh it's the bilingual thing" but then found out he has certain SEN's and needed specific help.

So ask the school for a PLAN (IEPs needed I think), and see if you can either afford a tutor or KipMcGrath to take her back to the start. If that's not an option, you can buy those English and Maths books at WHSMith and systematically work through them at home.

It won't be sorted overnight, but there is lots of time left to get started yet. You have confidence in her, which will give HER confidence. good luck

PS, In the end I did have to change schools though. You have to be a borderline- pushy parent. You have to fight for your child, nobody else will.

the child has been living with the ex a long distance away, so clearly at another school. A blame culture is no use, the current school are simply trying to distract from their own failings.

I would you suggest you ask the school for a referral to an educational psychologist to see if there are specifc problems. Menawhile go back to basics. Use join the dots (without numbers) in number shapes to help her recognise written numbers. If possible play hopscotch. Sing nursery rhymes like one, two, three, four, five once I caught a fish alive. Play snap (with numbered cards) and dominoes. Play snakes and ladders or other games where you count to six. As far as possible learning should be a game where you gently correct errors without a fuss.

Children learn to read in different ways, a few learn better by learning words than by phonics. Read a lot with her so she sees lots of word patterns. Encourage her to follow words you read and to sound words out but don't make a fuss if she struggles with it.

She speaks two languages, you may find that she will make excellent progress if you can keep her confidence up. But don't expect it to happen overnight. A friend of mine taught (as a volunteer) a child who was in a similar position at age 11. He won a prize that year for the most rapid progress in his age group, he simply needed more personal attention than the school could provide. It took him a year to learn to read and write normally.

Thank you so much for your responses. I haven't got enough time to read them all properly now as I'm taking DD dancing, but I will definitely be back later to do just that :)

Just to clarify a few things though:
No, not the same school- we switched this September going into year 3

It's only ever been English at school, Cantonese has been learnt at home with my MIL (from what I can gather from DD) Mostly because MIL can't speak a word of English. The reason I mention the Cantonese is because it's making me wonder if it's a phonic problem that's preventing DD from learning to read and write properly in English- no problems in Cantonese when there are no phonics. But I'm pretty clueless on all this at the moment- need to do some research

With the maths, it's been suggested that it's an early years problem- most of us take for granted that a child will be loved, cared for, played with and kept stimulated during the crucial early years of its life, as this is essential for brain development that allows understanding of numbers (according to the paed). DD hasn't had that to the same extent of most children, which could mean that a lot of her number understanding is just 'not there'. That's all very well, but telling me that is not going to help get DD to understand maths!

Yes, from 'great distance away' I got the impression that she had just started a a new school. I wonder if she attended her previous school all that regularly.

OP when you say she can't sound out simple words do you mean she just can't do it, or does she not know the sounds? If it is the latter, the school should be teaching this.

I can only reiterate others' suggestions to arrange a meeting with the SENCO and, if things don't improve, a referral to an EP. In the meantime, follow the practical suggestions of other posters. You have absolutely nothing to blame yourself for.

I work at a school where most children have a second home language, and often have little English at home or much support. The vast majority make good progress in terms of the expected norms, those that don't are almost always because of some SEN issue. It isn't right that the school is blaming past experience - they need to focusing on getting it right from now on. If her previous school hadn't given her the basics or identified that there was a specific learning difficulty and made steps to address this, then that is because of their failings.

It might be she worth calling her old school and discussing her with her old teacher (if this is possible). Have you got last year's report for her? This might flag up if they judged her to be significantly behind last year, and what support was in place for her.

As for her new school you need to start being proactive. Have another meeting with the class teacher about where she is now and what strategies are in place to help her catch up. If it proves unsuccessful ask to see the SENCO in another meeting with the class teacher. Ultimately it may not be the best school for her. I don't know what the school is like or the area you are in, but it would be worth looking for a school that has lots of experience with bilingual children. These are often in not the nicest areas and don't have the greatest reputation or Ofsted, but you can find them by actually going and visiting and finding out what they do yo support children like your dd.

Malaleuca- spoken English is fine, actually quite advanced for a 7 year old. Which is one of many things making me think there might be an underlying problem here.

IndigoBell she's at a new school now (since September), sorry, didn't make that too clear. I don't think it's anything to do with the Chinese as such- I just wonder if her competence with reading and writing where phonics are not concerned could be an indication of something SENish, I just don't know what yet.

Mummytime- yes the school are aware of her background, they think she might have an Attachment disorder :(

CecilyP- Sounding out simple words: I don't know :( We have been doing phonics at home and she knows which sound goes with which letter combination, but she seems to be memorizing the letter pattern rather than understanding it, if that makes sense. So when she sees a phonic in a word, such as 'sh' and 'ee' in sheep, she doesn't understand how it all fits together because she sees the phonics as something seperate. If I tell her that it says 'sheep' enough times then she'll commit it to memory and recognise the word, but she's not reading, just remembering. The trouble is that whenever she comes across a word she doesn't recognise, she doesn't seem to be seeing the phonics within the word and so she doesn't have a clue how to tackle it. Not sure if I've explained that very well, sorry.

I'm meeting with the SENCO next week but I'm trying to do some thinking of my own before then to try and help get to the bottom of what the problem is quickly, so we can help DD learn to read properly and grasp a concept of numbers.

Hockeyforjockeys- I don't have anything from DD's old school at the moment though I should be getting a copy of last year's report sent over soon. According to the SENCO at the old school they had DD down as a possible dyslexic/possible auditory problems towards the end of last year, though my ex insisted he didn't want her tested and they knew she was leaving so I don't think they put up too much of a fight. So they could be possible avenues to go down if SENCO at the new school agrees.

I'm a bit confused about the auditory angle though as DD is actually pretty good at music? Though I don't really know enough about all this to know whether or not an auditory problem would affect her learning an instrument, singing, etc.

You can have auditory problems and be good at music. There's a huge range of ways auditory problems can affect you.....

She def needs to be on the SEN register, and you need to be working with the SENCO.

And you need to be proactive, and keep insisting that school teach her.

And stop feeling guilty. The past is the past. Nothing can be changed about it. So keep concentrating on what you and school do from now on in.

There is no reason school can give which would mean they wouldn't have to teach your child, no reason they wouldn't expect your child to learn and make progress.

Never accept any excuse from school.

Make sure they know about the Chinese if you have a SN assessment done. I think it would be important for them to take the fact that her previous home life involved a lot of exposure to Chinese.

I don't know how a child with an auditory problem could manage to learn Chinese as it is a tonal language surely? However, there are sounds in Chinese that are not found in English and if her exposure to English has been limited then she may have difficulty telling some sounds from others.

Here are some typical problems.