Advice needed- year 3 DD unable to write/grasp numbers... don't know what to do

[Dreameronastar]

Don't know if this is the right place to post- but any advice would be greatly appreciated.

My DD is 7 and just gone into year 3- up until August for various reasons, she was living with my ex and his partner a great distance away- I didn't see much of her. I haven't been able to look after her as a single parent for a few years for health reasons I don't really want to go into- let's just say I feel terrible about it but I can't go back, I can only try and help DD as much as possible now I am well.

Again, don't want to go into this too much, but I now have sole custody of DD and she has had a pretty horrible time with my ex; has been given very little attention particularly in terms of school work, and I haven't really been in a position to be keeping an eye on things until now. Anyway, the bottom line is, it became clear to me when she moved in with me over the summer that DD really has no concept of numbers and how they work at all. She can count to 100 because she knows what comes next if that makes sense, but ask her what 2+3 is and she is stuck- she can memorize facts but has no concept at all of why, how, etc. We have tried using counters etc so she can 'see' what is happening to the numbers, but still she just doesn't understand. And then there is her writing- she has lovely handwriting and can actually read beyond what she should be doing at this point... when she recognises the word. She seems to have built up a decent repatoire of words simply by memorizing letter patterns, but when she comes across a word she hasn't memorized, even something simple like 'poppy' or 'harvest', she simply does not know how to sound it out. She cannot write at all unless she is copying out- has to have the letter pattern in front of her if that makes sense. It's as if she cannot recognise phonics or remember them to write them out herself. Apparently this is not dissimilar to learning Chinese characters as there is no such thing as a phonic- you just learn which sound to associate with which character. DD does actually speak, read and write Cantonese as my ex is Chinese, though I don't so I have no idea whether she has the same problem with this.

The school have been helpful to an extent but nothing is working with her so far and I suspect they are running out of things to try, judging by their attitude. They have suggested to me more than once that it is due to lack of support in the early years which obviously I feel terrible about, but I also know that until no I have been in no fit state to look after DD. I'm not interested in who is to blame here, I just want to help DD learn to read and write properly, and get her head around numbers! To me, the fact that she is able to recognise memorized letter patterns is proof she is not just 'thick', but for whatever reason something isn't going in or working for her. And I just feel such a responsibility to sort it all out for her.

Feel for you dreamer- no advice but BUMPing for others :)

Please try not to worry too much. My DH came to this country at the age of 8, speaking no English, and only able to write in a completely different alphabet and script.

He had no parental support at all. He managed, and went to university here, and has a very responsible job that involves a lot of teaching.

The school should be well able to sort this out.

I don't know where you live, but many schools have children who cannot speak or write English. It is not an unusual situation.

Thanks mathanxiety that's really helpful :) I still don't have a full picture of what life has been like for DD over the past few years but I get more and more out of her every day- she said something about not always going to school at DH's because MIL was supposed to take her and sometimes she was 'too tired' . We may never know. Going on that and the info you gave me on Chinese/English differences I wonder if maybe it could be a language problem after all- bits of it describe Marianne completely such as the alphabet and the bit about the short verbs, but in terms of spoken language not in the slightest . Although she does have l and r problems with reading and writing, just not orally?! I contacted a Chinese teacher in our local area today and she's agreed to see DD next week and access her reading and writing in Chinese to see what level she's at, as that might help to establish whether she has a language problem, a phonic problem or a writing problem in general. And all that can be passed on to the SENCO.

3littlefrogs- the trouble is, she can speak beautiful English beyond her years, she just can't read or write it which does make me worry that there's something else going on here [sigh]

As well as cuisonnaire rods, everyone on here recommends numicon

I'd suggest a meeting with her teacher. You need extra support for her or she will fall further and further behind. She may need an IEP.

Thanks IndigoBell had a look at those and they look great, thinking about ordering some :)

What is an IEP? Haven't had that mentioned yet...

I'm meeting with DD's teacher and the SENCO later in the week, want to get her seen by a Chinese teacher first to see whether she's having the same problems reading and writing in Chinese- if not, at least we know she's capable, there's just something stopping her at the moment, be it language, dyslexia, etc.

I had DD's year 2 report through today from her previous school- apparently she had an 82.4% attendance record last year :( Just 2.4% lower and it would have been investigated- feel so sorry for her now as even if she does have some sort of SEN, that can't have helped. I haven't been given ks1 SATs results, new school don't have them on DD's record and old school haven't mentioned them so we suspect she didn't do them, but her year 2 teacher says she was working at level 1b in reading and writing and 1c in numeracy at the end of last year :( Just to give you an idea of what we're dealing with!

An IEP is an Individual Education Plan, and most schools have them for every child on the SEN register.

They should be agreed with the parent, and reviewed every term.

They should contain targets and what extra help she's getting.

I think it's a very good idea to get her Chinese assessed.

82% attendance is bad - but not horrendous.

You don't 'do' Y2 SATS. They're teacher assessments, so it's compulsory for school to have assessed her.

If she's working at a 1b in Y3 she's about a year behind. At this age it's pretty bad. It's the level my DD was working at last year (and, as you know, she hasn't really improved much since then)

However, in your DDs case, what we don't know is whether she's a 1b because she has problems like my DD, or because of other external things (like attendance) that have now been fixed (or a mixture of both - I suspect a mixture :( ).

So I guess you need to work with school for the next 6 months before you can tell if she has SEN or not.

She needs to make at least a sub level of progress every term.......

YY Chinese assessment is a v good idea.

Maybe she is a bit behind because nobody has been able to help her at home due to a language barrier? If the granny who speaks little or no English has been hearing her reading for instance, the feedback couldn't have been too helpful. And wrt maths, maybe a different system has bamboozled your exH's family? The Chinese tend to focus more on memorisation of concepts with understanding coming later. It might not have bothered your ex of his family that your DD didn't really seem to understand what exactly maths was all about or come up with any concrete examples of numbers relating to quantity, relative size, etc.

Mathanxiety- good thought and I really would like to give my ex the benefit of the doubt, but unfortunately my ex has lived in England his whole life and grew up in the British school system (MIL just never integrated), has a clean sweep of As at o level and a maths and physics degree from a top UK university, he just couldn't be bothered with DD :( Though of course he could be bothered with DD's step sister and brother . MIL had a real bee in her bonnet from the moment she was born about how 'she will learn Chinese, she's half Chinese so she will learn Chinese', so she seems to have stuck to her word there. But other than that I don't think anyone paid enough attention to DD to realize she was struggling. DD's step mother is also highly educated, she just didn't see DD as her responsibility :(

Where was MIL brought up? Did she dominate the home?

Just saw this thread some 10 minutes ago and therefore didn?t read through the whole thing. But I have gathered enough info from OP to conclude the following:

? There?s nothing much wrong with your DD. It?s just that she has a ?Chinese? mind undoubtedly heavily influenced by her granny.

? DD speaks good English (but not read or write) because she?s living here in an English speaking country. Similarly, I can tell you there are many thousands of ethnic Chinese born and bred in the Orient who can speak many fluent Chinese dialects but can?t read or write a single sentence of Chinese (Mandarin) because they are English educated.

? I suspect your DD can understand the concept of numbers in Chinese but to interpret or think logically in the (Western) English manner may stumble her. People who first learn to count in a particular language when young will generally have this first ?counting language? permanently etched in their mind right through adulthood no matter what other language s/he speaks in later life. I know of many adult fluent English speakers who speak English 99.9% of the time and when it comes to maths and calculations automatically revert to Chinese.

? If it?s any consolation, the bulk of Asian children especially in S.E. Asia do not read or write in any language (mother tongue or not) at age seven. They don?t start schooling until age seven. Many of them have since gone on to world-class universities in later life.

It follows therefore, that you now give your DD every encouragement and support in the English way yourself, e.g. by teaching/tutoring her, reading to her, teach her the maths but don?t be surprised if she counts (mentally) in Chinese. Don?t depend too much on the school ? from what you wrote, they?re a useless bunch. Tell them many children around the world don?t start learning anything until aged seven; ?lack of support in the early years? my foot . . .

I would echo some of wha Pete has said. DO NOT let listen when anyone says or implies that it is too late to learn/grasp something. We are still learning a lot about how the brain works, and it can learn even quite basic things a lot later than was once thought, it can also recover in amazing ways.
So just keep working with her with numbers, count everything, play games, write numbers in shaving foam, stick foam numbers around the bath, spot numbers when you are out.
Hopefully she will come to see that learning is fun.

Yes - my DH has lived and worked here for over 40 years. He still counts and adds up etc in his "native language". It makes us laugh, but he finds it easier. At least we have all learned to count with him!

You might want to consider Kumon. It is expensive, but is excellent for children with the sort of difficulty you describe.

Kumon instructors earn very little, but many of them are ex teachers and are very dedicated.

it's pretty obvious she has a Special Educational Need - but that doesn't mean that she will have one in a year's time if she has the support she needs at school as well as at home. Her father managed to cope with an English school system and he presumably started school with a similar problem but did well eventually. Badger the school until they provide proper support.

Well done for arranging the Chinese assessment.

Kumon is not suitable for a child with this level of difficulties.

I completely agree with Peteneras' summing up and advice.

First you need to make sure that she knows all the phonic sounds - ask the school if they have a system they use of if you can have some support to ensure she knows these. Once you are sure that she has a basic understanding of the phonics a book called Toe By Toe can help her to build up the different sounds. It is something you can do with her at home for short bursts daily and helps her segment and build sounds and words.

For maths you are going to have to go back to basics - counting using different objects in the house - counting as you climb stairs, counting how many pairs of knickers she has, how many socks, how many slices in a loaf of bread. Then lining up 10 of something, adding extra ones and seeing how many you have or taking 1 away and seeing how many are left. Once you have done this actively and visually then you can introduce the written number system. Perhaps get a white board and white board pen and write the sums down. It will take time - but will be worth it in the end. Good luck!

Toebytoe is really good I've heard and also another really good phonic scheme thats simple to deliver is 'Dancing Bears' published by the Promethean Trust. Its designed to be used by non experts and you just work through a session each day. I know various parents of children with reading difficulties that are really pleased with it. You can ring the company up and talk to them about what your dd would need.

For maths I highly recommend RM Maths. It is really very very good at building first maths concepts systematically and again you just do a session on the computer each day. RM maths costs about £50 but is really good and you can use it from age 3 up to the end of primary. I'll try and find the site.

Found the link!

www.rm.com/shops/rmshop/Product.aspx?cref=PD994210

Its 'RM maths for home use'. They market the product more for schools - possibly why its so cheap for home purchase as its really sophisticated.

Toe by toe is better for slightly older kids, and it goes quite fast.

Bear necessities or dancing bears would be better.

Thanks everyone :) Had DD seen by a Chinese teacher today- apparently her reading and writing is below average for a Chinese child in a Hong Kong elementary at this age, though this could be because DD was only learning Chinese at home. Apparently she's recognising characters and remembering corresponding oral words just fine, she just doesn't quite have the vocabulary of a child in a Hong Kong school of her age. I was hoping to be told that DD's Chinese was fine as this would indicate that she just hasn't got the hang of English yet, but never mind :( Chinese teacher also tried some maths with her in Chinese- still clueless.

Mathanxiety- MIL was born and brought up in Hong Kong- came over here in the 70s I think. I don't think she dominated as such- more DD was often left with her when my ex was busy doing family stuff with DD's step mother, brother and sister.

Pete- sorry, didn't make that too clear, lack of support in the early years refers more to emotional support/attention than educational. Her present school think she may have an attachment disorder as a result.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions, I'm going to look them up tomorrow and see if anything might work for DD :) We did have a bit of a breakthrough this evening on the maths front- was making cupcakes with her and asked her to count the number of holes in the tray- 12. She can normally do that fine- can count like a robot but has no understanding of what she's actually doing. Then I asked her how many cake cases we were going to need, and instead of looking puzzled or counting out the cases as she put them into the holes like she did last time a couple of months ago, she looked right at me and said '12, because one can go in each hole.' :) Might sound like nothing but she's never managed to make connections like that before- that's how non-existant her grasp of numbers is. Or was. So proud of her I almost cried :)

Are you sure she has no gaps in her knowledge? Maybe she can't count as well in English?

I agree with peteneras and it sounds much more as if your DD has gaps in her knowledge in both languages due to not being in an environment that fully supported Chinese-English bilingualism. My DD, who is also 7 and is bilingual in French and English (which is easier than Chinese-English bilingualism by a long shot), has grown up in an environment that is immensely supportive of bilingualism and yet she has little gaps (eg she is much better at numeracy in English than in French which causes problems at school in maths, which is taught in French) here and there - nothing I worry about, but I constantly work on it. I find that I must always be vigilant about the input she gets in each language in order to keep her on track in both and that one does not come to dominate her life.

amazing how food can promote understanding. Try letting her eat smarties if she gets 2 and 3 correct . Some teachers teach fractions with mars bars......