small class sizes - yay or nay?

[mollysmum82]

I went to a private school open day today and the reception teacher said "basically what you are paying for are the small class sizes". Do you agree this is what people are mostly paying for with private education? And what is your opinion on small class sizes - do you worry that socially there is less "choice" of friends or do you think its worth it for the individual attention? I can't decide!

Agree with the majority of previous posters - DS2 is in a class of twenty this year - it's great. I have taught smaller classes myself though - twelve was the lowest. It was okay the year of eight girls and four boys, but awful the year of four girls and eight boys. Some girls can be much nastier than boys, and are so keen to establish friendship hierachies, that with a tiny number you end up frequently having one sad and excluded by the others.

I's want 15-24 in a class. In a mixed school you need a reasonable size class to have enough girls/boys as singinggirl says.

In an independent primary I would expect to be paying for:
Smaller class sizes
Better facilities (e.g. specialist sports facilities)
Greater access to specialist extra-curricular teaching (music, sport, languages)
More specialisation by the teachers towards secondary age (so having some specialist maths, art, sports, music etc teaching) as a recognition that teachers do have greater teaching skills in different subjects.

My 2 in private school and the class sizes quite small. Ds jn reception and there are 14 in his class - but there are 2 reception classes and they interact lots so not too worried about the social side.
However, you are also paying for all the extra stuff such as lots of sport, ds does swimming lessons in school pool, music, he is learning French and the facilities are fantastic. I do think it depends on the school though as not all private schools are great.

class of 18 at our private school, i think it's great... we saw one that had 8 per class and i thought it was just too limiting socially.

Out of interest, how many grown ups do you have in your class of 18?

In our class of 14 there are 2 grown ups

My son only had 4 in his year (rural village school) now there are around 8 and in a class of around 15, the local town school has around 100 to a year and they get 2 x 15 mins 1:1 with the teacher a week, my sons school gets 3 x 30 mins a week which is a massive difference, my son has no problems socialising with older/younger children.

Interesting. In my ds's state school class of 29, there are 3 grown ups. Not uncommon, and not massively different to the 1:7 in the private school.

State primary, reception - I have had between 18 and 22 (PAN is 18) and it's a great number to work with. I have worked (elsewhere) with 1 class of 14 and at that point personality clashes became a problem as there was little flexibility to split certain people into certain groups. I'd agree with Mrz that 20 is a good number, and I have huge admiration for a colleague working close by who has 33 in her reception class (argh!).

I have 1 full time TA in my class of 19, my friend has 2 full time TAs in her class of 33. So the ratios are not dissimilar, but the noise/space in classroom may be different.

Smaller classes are definitely a positive in the primary school years. I don't think class sizes matter as much when it comes to secondary. Even the most able of teachers can't give each child that much attention in a class of 30. Also do children really need to be 'friends' with 29 other children?

Also do children really need to be 'friends' with 29 other children?
no but if they are in a class of 10 they only have 9 choices whereas in a class of 20 they have 3 times as many to choose from to find someone who they like and share common interests.

Even the most able of teachers can't give each child that much attention in a class of 30
I would suggest too much attention can be just as bad as too little it is about find the correct balance between support and spoonfeeding

In a class of 30, some kids only get 10 mins one-to-one attention a day - not great for small children!! (so much for a 'gentle approach' in reception, eh?). Obviously the badly behaved children or really loud ones will get that extra time. Perhaps that's why parents feel they need to put in the extra time with their children at home.

20 seems like a good number - was not thinking of a class of 8 (I have no experience of village schools).

Yes, some people seem to think that kids only learn through attention by a teacher.

Whereas most learning takes place in other ways. For example writing a long piece of work - unsupported.

Or puzzling over a maths problem - until you solve it.

Or influencing your peers.

There is a very interesting study that proves that the biggest indicator of how good you are at maths - is how long you spend working on it before you give up.

So, it really is possible for a teacher to give every child in a class of 30 as much attention as then need.

I certainly have never found that my 3 kids have ever been overlooked in classes of 30.

I have found that out of a class of 30 there is only 1 child they want to be friends with.

And I have found that my DD has been hampered by getting too much support.

But magdalene - if you're not happy with 10 mins 1:1 - why would you be happy with 20 mins 1:1? It's not really that much difference. It still means most of their time is not spent 1:1

Why do you feel children need so much time 1:1?

Reading this with interest as finished a contract at a school where I had 30 children with a boy/girl imbalance and my next class has 11 mixed age in it. I am looking forward to it, but think it will be different. Largest i have taught was a Maths set of 36 which was just too big. Taught a set another year with 14 + TA and loved it, able to give individual attention but let children work independently too - just had smaller groups. If you wanted smaller classes would you be prepared for it to be mixed age, as many small primaries are?

As a teacher I found 24 pretty ideal ( only once in my career unfortunately ) and anything up to 32 manageable but harder work. Fewer than 20 means fewer ideas, some children feeling a bit over exposed and not enough to create friendships for most. My opinion only!

Again, I only have my childrens'/friends' schools to go on, but I love the fact that my two are in classes of 30 each. In fact, DS1 positively flourished once he moved from a small private nursery class of 12, to a Reception class of 30.

Both children have plenty of interaction with the teachers and TA's (still amazed how DS2's teacher has been able to tune into him perfectly in only 6 weeks), but it has also been fantastic socially.

If DS1 is finding a particular child annoying etc, he can just keep out of his/her way until it blows over. He has best friends, and then several other groups of friends he likes to do specific things with, so one group for football, another group for board games.

I guess, as always, it depends on the child, and the school, but I certainly wouldn't pay for a private school based on class sizes alone.

Personally I like a class size of 15 or less for small DC. Even with a good adult ratio I find large classes unwieldy.

That said, I also like a larger year intake, split up iyswim.

But I would also say, that I did not and would not pay simply for that issue.

There were a lot of other drivers.

Of course children need time to think for themselves and work things out themselves but they also need to be TAUGHT. That's what teachers are there for, surely?? They are there for 32 hours a week so I wouldn't expect small children to work out how to read for themselves, write, punctuate etc without some input from the teacher!!!

Also when do children really have that much time to think things out for themselves when they are constantly put in groups ALL the time? And I am not one of these parents who spoonfeeds their kids with structured after school activities as I believe children need to have time to themselves to play and work things out.

Teachers can teach 30 children just as easily as 10 children or 20 children. Even in a small class reading, writing, punctuation aren't TAUGHT 1-1.

I think you have the wrong idea about children being in groups they don't work as a group they work as individuals sitting together for most of the school day/week. Children are encouraged to think for themselves and do the work for themselves.

so when the economy stops falling over can we have a mumsnet campaign to have class sizes of between 15 and 25 in every state school?