Another sight reading problem...

[SpiderManMum]

Hi, I have read other threads with interest and didn't want to hijack so if anyone has any advice I'd be very grateful..

DS has just started Reception and knows all the letter sounds from following Jolly Phonics in nursery. They have now moved on to blending sounds and decoding words all of which DS is struggling with. The teacher even called me in to see her the other afternoon to ask if we could have a hearing test as she wasn't sure if he can actually hear the sounds that make up a word. For some reason he has no problem hearing the first sound in any word, but cannot get the others (or if he does, can't put them in the right order).

The hearing test results are all fine but I'm at a bit of a loss of how to help. He has a very good memory so can sight read quite well which isn't helping matters.

Is the Sound Reading Solutions the way to go? I see that it is a US product, is it available in the UK and are there any problems with children understanding the American accent?

I'm already starting to worry about dyslexia, which deep down I know is a bit silly at this stage but I can't for the life of me understand why he just isn't getting it!

taught by the traditional methods you deride.

But what you think of as 'traditional methods' are the 'newcomers' Phonics has been taught for hundreds of years.

Did you know that 'look & say' originated as a method for teaching deaf children to read? It gave them a limited reading vocabulary. Why on earth the 'traditional' method of teaching reading (phonics), which gives children access to just about any word they encounter, was rejected in favour of a method which taught deaf children a limited number of words is a complete mystery to me.

The only reason that Look & Say was moderately successful is that some children can intuit the phonics for themselves. But why spend time making children 'discover' something that they can easily be taught?

Whole language is kind of a never ending process, because there seem to be words coming up all the time that are unknown.

I am not sure that 'whole language' has ever been used for teaching reading and writing by anyone.

'Phonics' and 'whole word' are surely not mutually exclusive? For reading, it's perfectly possible, and makes good sense, to use mainly phonics to begin with, but gradually to switch to more and more memorisation of words by sight. Being able to read all common words by sight is the final goal of all teaching of reading anyway.

For spelling, unknown words never stop coming up. It is impossible to be sure of the spelling of any English word without having it seen first. I have established that among the 6800 most used English words 3695 have one more tricky letters, but for the other 3105 pupils also have to learn that they don't have them.

I am not sure that 'whole language' has ever been used for teaching reading and writing by anyone.

and you call yourself a literacy researcher?
www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j22/wholelang.php
www.kidsandreading.co.uk/whole-language-reading.html
www.cloudworld.co.uk/phonics-faq.htm#wholelanguage
teachingmybabytoread.blog.com/2011/03/01/phonics-whole-language-and-balanced-literacy-instruction/
ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9780511667305&cid=CBO9780511667305A017
www.teachingtimes.com/articles/the-simple.htm

Mrz and indigo, like your sons I learnt to read whole words/ look and say ( from those teach your baby to read books) and am a very quick reader, I am aware I still read the whole word/ by analogy as a preference to phonics as if I occasionally make a mistake it is always because of the way a word looks rather than the way it sounds (I would never muddle here and hear, would and wood; but wrote pharoah for pharaoh for years as assumed it went like Noah! ). I'm not an awful speller and don't think it has been too much of a handicap, so don't worry too much.

I see that the usual protagonists are here the phonics industry, trying to sell various phonics programs, and explaining how a man made communication system was created, for those who are best able to use an alphabet based visual notation of speech or writing system. All writing systems have been designed to best suite the cognitive needs of those who designed it, not for VARIATIONS OF COGNITIVE NEEDS of all who expected to use it.

Alphabets are the have most complex orthographies, multiple graphic symbols to represent the sounds of a word. And within the Latin Alpabet writing system we use the most complex language, or deepest orthography, English. The purest languages in the Latin Alphabet writing system are Italian and Finnish. So we are trying to learn to read the most complex language in the most complex of writing systems.

So who is most suited to use our chosen written language option. Those who have very good Auditory Processing and attention skills and abilities. And who are least able to use this chosen written language, those who have poor auditory processing abilities, poor attention abilities, or those who have auditory processing disorders (APD), and attention disorders. Those who have visual processing disabilities will have always have problems processing a visual form of communication.

Those who have APD 10% of the child population according to the Medical Research Council will not bve able to process the gaps between the sounds that make up a word, nor the gaps between words in rapid speech. So they may understand the concept of phonics but they are cognitively not able to use phonics, nor be able to phonetically sound out new words. Those like me who have APD need to hear others repeatedly say new words so that we can learn the whole sound of a new word. Which when we were younger was how we learn to speak and why our speech development can be delayed. Those who have APD tend to be very good lipreaders, and reader of body language as compensatory skills to compensate for our disability APD is one of the underlying cognitive causes of the Developmental Dyslexia symptom.

Those who have these types of cognitive issues may prefer more visual methods of teaching and learning, as we have to best guess sound based information we miss to fill in the gaps in the sound information we process due to our disability. And we have to do the same when using any form of notation of a sound based form of communication. And the written word is the visual notation of speech.

Those who have cognitive problems with Reading need to identify the underlying cause of the Developmental Dyslexia,which will have more serious symptoms than the dyslexic one, so that they can begin to understand the full nature of their disability, and begin to understand and work out how they are best able to work around these problems, while others need to use form of information communication which is more suitable to their learning needs.

dolfrog would you like to name those you are accusing of trying to sell programs?

mrz

They know who they are. Taking on those who only want to promote, a single method teaching and / or a single program, over the last 6 ot 7 years on various forums now triggers my post traumatic stress, which was initially causes by years of disability discrimination in the work place when my employers refused to recognise and accommodate my disability.
I am dyslexic (have problems with reading writing and spelling), and auditory processing disorder (APD) is the underlying cause of my dyslexic symptom. And as a result of having APD I cognitively can not use phonics.

Basically all teachers need to understand the lexical and sublexical processes required to perform the tasks of reading, and how some can have difficulties accessing and using these processes. Which will require them to be able to adjust their teaching methods, and programs to match the each child's learning needs.
So all teachers need to be able to use at least both phonics and whole word approaches to teaching reading, and may be a few more. So those who advocate for a single program or single approach are selling that option in favour of providing the mixed approach many children may need. And ignoring the learning needs of these children to satisfy their own limited interests, or sales and / or income needs.

Dolfrog
U may have noticed that the people who only want to promote, a single method teaching and / or a single program regularly try to give me a hard time because I try to explain that learning to read and write English involves far more than phonics.

pots and kettles masha

dolfrog I just wondered if you were including me in your list of "usual protagonists" as masha seems to believe I have great influence and aspirations for world domination

The Phonics V Whole Word debate for the most part is a marketing war, and has very little to do with improving the understanding of how we learn to read.

If you to understand how we learn to read then you need to follow Alexia Research. Alexia (acquired dyslexia) concerns those who are loosing their ability or have lost their ability to read. Alexia is caused by brain injury, substance abuse, stroke, dementia, or a progressive illness. It is from Alexia research that the Psycholinguistic models of reading have evolved, and more recently from neuroimaging research.

You could have a look at
An Evaluation of Basic Reading Processes
Development of neural mechanisms for reading
[[http://bit.ly/tLTblu Neural Representations of Visual Words and Objects:
A Functional MRI Study on the Modularity of Reading
and Object Processing]]
Early involvement of dorsal and ventral pathways in visual word recognition: An ERP study
[[http://bit.ly/soGVNe Connectionist Models of Word
Reading]]

All of which are included in my Reading links list which includes more links to both research paper collections and individual research papers on related issues.

Dolfrog, asfaik, no one here is responsible for writing/selling any phonics programmes whatsoever. Would you like to tell us who your suspicions are aimed at? Because I think you are barking up the wrong ORT

I'm no clearer about my role in the conspiracy theory

Feenie mrz

Any teacher who insists on only using a single type program to teach reading is selling the concept, to all children they teach that the program they choose top use is the only way to learn. Like a car salesman selling his brand of car. Unfortunately children have many different types of learning needs, and are not able to go to an alternative class to find a teacher selling or using their preferred form of learning. So in some instances some teachers are performing disability discrimination because they are failing to address some children's learning needs because thy can only use one teaching program, a bit like poorly trained parade ground instructors.
Teachers should be trained to have a full understanding of the various cognitive processes involved in the task of reading, and which teaching programs address each of these cognitive processes. Some children will not be able to process sound information suffiently to use phonics so they will require programs which address their alternative compensating abilities to help them read.
And yes our language should be modified to make communication easier for every day use, as is happening in other countries which use the English language, as part of the evolution of language.

And as I have mentioned before, over the years those who share my disability 10% of the child population are cognitively not able to use phonics, so we need teachers to be adaptable and be able to use alternative teaching methods to help us learn to read. I do understand the concept of phonics, but for me that is all phonics will ever be, an concept that i can never use in practice, I can not process the gaps between sounds, especially the sounds that make up words, nor the sounds between words in rapid speech, so blending for me is a complete nonsense. However i can imitate or repeat the whole sound of a word, an match the whole sound to its graphic representation as text on a good day.

So presumably you would agree that we are meeting ALL our pupils needs as they ALL learn to read to at least age appropriate expectations

There seems to be a lack of understanding about dyslexia. A sample from breadandbutterfly
"I'm sure it is the only and best way for dyslexic children who struggle with memorizing things and have a poor visual memory - but for non-dyslexic children, utilising this visual memory is a crucial part of learning to read and more particularly, of being able to read at speed. I think the failure of synthetic phonics fans to recognise this does as much of a disservice to non-dyslexic children as a purely sight-reading approach does to dyslexic children - maybe more so, because there a lot more of the former, who, IMHO, are destined to be very slow and hence unenthusiastic readers given this approach."

Dyslexia is a man made problem, about having cognitive problems with a man made communication system the visual notation of speech, or decoding and recoding the graphic symbols society chooses to represent the sounds of speech. So dyslexia is a Social Construct.
There are two types of dyslexia Alexia (Acquired Dyslexia) those who are loosing or have lost their ability to read, due to brain injury, substance abuse, stroke, dementia or a progressive illness; and Developmental Dyslexia which has a genetic origin, and has three cognitive subtypes:auditory, visual, and attentional. And each subtype or underlying cognitive disability requires different forms of support, and accommodation. And phonics will create a problems for about 60% of dyslexics who have problems processing sound based information due to their various underlying cognitive disabilities.

All children need to be able to use whole word, and phonics so that they can understand and use the words they are learning, in the correct context, to avoid the phonics only types becoming hyperlexic and not being able to understand what they are able to read, decode.

mrz

I wish that were true. None of my sons, who all have APD, ever came into that category, because the schools were sop fixed in only using phonics, and refused to begin to understand the nature of their disability. So from my experience teachers practice disability discrimination, and fail children who share my disability. They teach our child to fail, because we are not able use their teaching methods. Pure ignorance.

dolfrog I am speaking for my school and as far as I know your son's aren't pupils and have never been pupils.

mrz

If you have a good understanding of the neurobiology of how we learn to read, and have a good understanding of the cognitive neurobiology of developmental dyslexia, and you are able to adapt your teaching methods to best suite each child's learning needs, then you may be doing the right thing.
From my experiences on the Senco forum over the last few years I have found few who have begun to understand the underlying causes of the dyslexic symptom. Which is partially due to the funding needs of the UK dyslexia industry, another marketing led industry which ignores the needs of those it claims to represent.
The real problem is the poor quality of teacher training in the UK, going back to 1984. And a failure of those in the education system to want to work with those who understand and diagnose the cognitive disabilities which can affect how children learn. And a complete lack of willingness to listen to parents. Teachers tend to think that "they know it all" and do not like to listen to others who may know more than they do. Some even invent new conditions to hide their ignorance.

So if you are one of the few teachers who is willing to listen and learn then you are doing things correctly.

You haven't answered dolfrog ... So presumably you would agree that we are meeting ALL our pupils needs as they ALL learn to read

From what I have seen over the years
NO

In what way do you consider we are not meeting their needs when they all read to a good standard?

mrz
They are not all reading to a good standard, mainly because the teachers do not understand how they need to or prefer to learn.
Most teachers are not competent to be teachers, they are purely rote instructors, who have little or no understanding how children actually learn and are therefore not able to teach, they are not able to adapt their teaching methods to match each child's learning needs as this seems to be beyond their comprehension.

There are a few good teachers, and you may be one of them.

Until schools begin to use the technology available to understand how we learn, and how each child may need to learn, then we are stuck with production line teaching which is very hit and miss, because there is a lack of understanding of how we learn, and of each child's learning needs. Children like all humans are not clones, and have different cognitive strengths, cognitive weaknesses, cognitive deficits and cognitive disabilities.
All of these issues need to be understood pre-school, and formal education should begin after the age of cognitive maturation 7-8 years old, as happens in the more advanced countries. So that all children who are able to fully develop their cognitive abilities before formal education begins.

dolfrog so you personally know all 2000+ pupils from my school?

I'm confused! mrz says all her children read to a good standard, you say they don't! How would you know?