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Primary education

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Another sight reading problem...

161 replies

SpiderManMum · 19/10/2011 23:53

Hi, I have read other threads with interest and didn't want to hijack so if anyone has any advice I'd be very grateful..

DS has just started Reception and knows all the letter sounds from following Jolly Phonics in nursery. They have now moved on to blending sounds and decoding words all of which DS is struggling with. The teacher even called me in to see her the other afternoon to ask if we could have a hearing test as she wasn't sure if he can actually hear the sounds that make up a word. For some reason he has no problem hearing the first sound in any word, but cannot get the others (or if he does, can't put them in the right order).

The hearing test results are all fine but I'm at a bit of a loss of how to help. He has a very good memory so can sight read quite well which isn't helping matters.

Is the Sound Reading Solutions the way to go? I see that it is a US product, is it available in the UK and are there any problems with children understanding the American accent?

I'm already starting to worry about dyslexia, which deep down I know is a bit silly at this stage but I can't for the life of me understand why he just isn't getting it! Sad

OP posts:
mrz · 22/10/2011 10:01

Just to make it clear I have no financial interest in any reading programme my only interest is ensuring all children get the best possible start to equip them for their future. I do not believe masha's continual negativity and assertion that learning to read in English is impossibly difficult gives parents the wrong message and her continual posting of lists is counter productive.

BOOareHaunting · 22/10/2011 10:19

Well I have to say mrz and feenie have both given me great advice with DS literacy as he strugggles. He has gone from a 1B to 2A reader since the start of year 2 (now year 3) so they definatly know their stuff. His writing is still a struggle and he is being tested for SpLD but their advice has helped us gained phonics strategies that work for DS - one of which his year 3 teacher has taken on board and now gives him his own spellings to learn using the way he decodes words for reading so he can reverse it for writing.

mashaHmm I'm another who agrees your process will fail many. I can't read or spell words by sight memory and neither can my DS. Phonics work even though auditory and visual processing difficulties are revelant.

spiderman I always agree with the sentimnet that you know your own child. I think it's agreat idea to look at the programmes link at the start and seewhich one works for your DS. Best of luck. Smile

pickledsiblings · 22/10/2011 11:09

the process of blending can cause problems for dc who have 'poor' working memory [about 10 percent of dc in the classroom]

there is evidence to show that working memory is not fixed as once thought

op, if your dc has a 'poor' working memory [there are diagnostic tests for this] then persevering with the 'phonics' approach will imho be better in the long run

an approach that doesn't place high levels of demand on working memory may help so you could try making sure the your dc can do all the two phoneme words easily first eg at, in, if, of, on, is, or and even things like un

you can then introduce rhyming versions with 3 phonemes eg at-sat, in-tin, is-his

[these are just some ideas for you to try at home that should not be harmful in any way, i wish you well with it all]

CecilyP · 22/10/2011 11:33

^2littlecherubs,
I'm afraid that your child's school has got the whole process the wrong way round. Phonics comes first. Teaching decoding and blending comes first. Reading words (and then text) through decoding and blending comes first. Whole words taught by flash cards come nowhere if phonics is taught (properly) first because children need no other strategy for reading known and unknown words.^

Maizie, 2littlecherubs has said that her DS knows all his phonics (so presumably his school has taught it) but he can't, as yet, blend them to make words. If he only gets the idea towards the end of reception, what would you suggest he does in the meantime? What do early years teachers do in this situation? How do they prevent DCs from getting discouraged when they see their classmates forging their way through the reading scheme?

mrz · 22/10/2011 13:47

CecilyP there are 180ish grapheme phoneme correspondences to learn so in half a term it is unlikely the school has managed to teach them all yet Hmm
Phonics teaching involves daily practise of phonemes, learning new phonemes and how to form the letters needed to write the phoneme correctly, daily practise of blending for reading, daily practise of segmenting for spelling and applying everything taught. So what early years teachers do is provide plenty of support and encouragement during daily activities. I'm not sure why a child should get discouraged unless there is pressure on them to do things they aren't yet capable of. There is nothing more discouraging than to be given a book to read when you haven't got the skills to allow you to do so.

CecilyP · 22/10/2011 15:05

No, mrz, I didn't think for one minute that 2littlecherubs' DS or his classmates had covered 180 grapheme phoneme correspondences in half a term. My question was really based on him not yet being able to blend the ones that he had already learned. I was thinking in terms of him not getting to grips with is until the end of reception (possibly a wrong assumption) while most of the rest of the class did (again, possibly a wrong assumption). I am sure there is no pressure from the teacher, plus lots of encouragement, but children (and parents) do make comparisons. Fair enough if it isn't a problem.

Lancelottie · 22/10/2011 15:20

'children need no other strategy [than phonics] for reading known and unknown words'

I'm really intrigued by this. What do you do with deaf children, or those who, like one of mine, could never see the link between the phonemes and the resultant blended word? Not limited to reading, incidentally -- for ages he couldn't pronounce his own name, despite being perfectly OK with every syllable individually. Vivid recollections of trying to teach him this around age 3.5 (names changed, but he called himself something like Duzzer at the time):
'Can you say Al?' 'Al'
' ist?' 'ist'
'Air?' 'air'
'Say Alistair?' 'Duzzer'

He must have learnt to read by recognising whole words, I think, as he never seemed to think part of a word was at all related to the whole thing.

Maybe it's lucky(?) that he's on the ASD spectrum,and has a bloody good memory?

mrz · 22/10/2011 17:13

Unfortunately CecilyP not everyone masters a skill the first time, some don't master it the second time ...some don't master it the 30th time ... it is a case of perseverance I'm afraid. It isn't a problem as far as the school is concerned they are aware some children take longer than others to develop blending skills.

maizieD · 22/10/2011 21:32

Lancelottie;

Deaf children can learn to read phonemically by way of the 'feel' of phoneme articulation and cued speech. They will have problems with phonemes which sound and feel similar to articulate (and they have problems with lip reading these, too), such as 't' & 'd'. But the principle is that they are still associating something with the alphabet symbol/s, just not a sound, but a 'feel' or a cue. They have to learn to speak by discriminating phonemes in some way, there is no reason why this cannot be extended to reading.

There are a very, very few children to whom phonics is a closed book. You will find that msz, who is a staunch advocate of phonics teaching, has a son who never 'got it', like yours, yet, with her many years experience of teaching reading to children she uses phonics because it is effective with all but a tiny handful.

mrz · 22/10/2011 21:39

My son is ASD and hyperlexic so I thought it didn't matter that he was never taught phonics and has never grasped so much as the basics ... I was very wrong.

Lancelottie · 23/10/2011 13:12

Why is that, Mrz? I suspect it's held DS1 back from learning other languages, but honestly I think he reads just fine in English, except for the sort of word that you only ever see in books rather than hear spoken (veeHEEmently is one that comes to mind -- but Im not sure phonics helps with emphasis, anyhow).

Interesting that ASD features for them both, btw!

mrz · 23/10/2011 13:16

My son reads fine in English but didn't write until Y6 and then only with great difficulty. Spelling is much more of an issue for him.

blackeyedsusan · 23/10/2011 17:38

have you played around with 3 letterwords by changing the middle letter or last letter to make different words? ( mum, mud, mug, or dog, dig, dug.)

2littlecherubs · 23/10/2011 18:16

To clarify my ds knows the majority of his phonics as the school is teaching it. He started at school in Kindergarten where he was taught all the sounds such as s, a, t, etc. (they were following the jolly phonics) They are now doing sounds such as ch, ee etc and ds knows these. However as I said he can not blend the sounds so he can sit and read c, a, t but can't translate it to cat. I know they are doing this at school as when I collect him at night I see all the phonics work they are doing on the whiteboard.

However in addition to this they learn sight words from flashcards so that they can read simple books in the meantime. This seems to work great as it gives him so much confidence and has really increased his enthusiasm for reading. I walked in the lounge one night and he was reading a book out loud to his sister

When I spoke to the teacher some of the kids can blend and others cant (but she said it will come in time) but the key is to get them all reading. I am not concerned about the teaching methods as the school goes all the way through to senior school and the results are great. I dont believe there is a right or wrong way to teach if you get results and the kids are happy and engaged.

mrz · 23/10/2011 18:38

Just to clarify 2littlecherubs when I asked about knowing all the phonics I meant

as in tree and in me and in s ea t and in th ie f and in key and in sunny and in eve and in rec ei ve and in ski

and
as in cheese and as in patch

so I guess a long way to go yet

2littlecherubs · 23/10/2011 19:23

I never said that he didn't have a long way to go :-(

mrz · 23/10/2011 19:48

It could be your school won't bother teaching all that

Mashabell · 24/10/2011 06:53

2littlecherubs - I dont believe there is a right or wrong way to teach if you get results and the kids are happy and engaged.

Nor do I.
When it comes to learning to read words which contain spellings which can have more than one pronunciation, which I have listed as Sightwords on my website, phonics (in the normal sense of the word -learning to sound out spellings and encoding sounds) is of limited use anyway.

The 69 spellings with more than one pronunciation are responsible for making learning to read English so time-consuming, with phonics and other methods:

a: and ? apron, any, father
a-e: came ? camel
ai: wait ? said, plait
al: always ? algebra
-all: tall - shall
are: care - are
au: autumn - laugh, mauve
-ate: to deliberate - a deliberate act
ay: stays - says

cc: success - soccer
ce: centre - celtic
ch: chop ?chorus, choir, chute
cqu: acquire - lacquer 19

e: end ? English
-e: he - the
ea: mean - meant, break
ear: ear ? early, heart, bear
-ee: tree - matinee
e-e: even ? seven, fete
ei: veil - ceiling, eider, their, leisure
eigh: weight - height
eo: people - leopard, leotard
ere: here ? there, were
-et: tablet - chalet
eau: beauty ? beau
- ew: few - sew
- ey: they - monkey

ge: gem - get
gi: ginger - girl
gy: gym ? gynaecologist

ho: house - hour
i: wind ? wind down ski hi-fi
- ine: define ?engine, machine
ie: field - friend, sieve
imb: limb ? climb
ign: signature - sign
mn: amnesia - mnemonic

ost: lost - post
-o: go - do
oa: road - broad
o-e: bone ? done, gone
-oes: toes ? does, shoes
-oll: roll - doll
omb: tombola - bomb, comb, tomb
oo: boot - foot, brooch
-ot: despot - depot
ou: sound - soup, couple
ough: bough - rough, through, trough, though
ought: bought - drought
oul: should - shoulder, mould
our: sour - four, journey
ow: how - low

qu: queen ? bouquet
s: sun ? sure
sc: scent - luscious, molusc
-se: rose - dose
ss: possible - possession
th: this - thing
-ture: picture - mature
u: cup ? push
ui: build ? fruit, ruin
wa: was ? wag
wh: what - who
wo: won - woman, women, womb
wor: word ? worn
x: box - xylophone, anxious

  • y-: type - typical
  • -y: daddy - apply z: zip ? azure

Masha Bell

mrz · 24/10/2011 11:43

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Lancelottie · 24/10/2011 16:25

DS (and DD, for that matter) love this:

I take it you already know
Of tough and bough and cough and dough
Others may stumble, but not you,
On hiccough, thorough, tough and through;
Well done! And how you wish perhaps
To learn of less familiar traps?
Beware of heard, a dreadful word
That looks like beard and sounds like bird.
And dead; it's said like bed, not bead
For goodness sake don't call it "deed".
Watch out for meat and great and threat
(They rhyme with suite and straight and debt)
A moth is not a moth in mother,
Nor both in bother, broth in brother.
And here is not a match for there
Nor dear and fear for bear and pear.
And then there's dose and rose and lose
Just look them up and goose and choose,
And cork and work and word and sword,
And do and go and thwart and cart.
Come, come I've hardly made a start.
A dreadful language? Man alive
I mastered it when I was five.

MigratingCoconuts · 24/10/2011 16:48

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Not sure I see that one on Marsha's list there, mrz [hwink]

Feenie · 24/10/2011 18:11

[hgrin]

mrz · 24/10/2011 19:35

The lists are driving me MAD! [hbiscuit]

Mashabell · 25/10/2011 11:25

Mrz - Many children find the inconsistencies of English spelling maddening.

Gerard Nolst Trenité - The Chaos (1922)

Dearest creature in creation
Studying English pronunciation,
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse.

I will keep you, Susy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy;
Tear in eye, your dress you'll tear;
Queer, fair seer, hear my prayer.

Pray, console your loving poet,
Make my coat look new, dear, sew it!
Just compare heart, hear and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word.

Sword and sward, retain and Britain
(Mind the latter how it's written).
Made has not the sound of bade,
Say-said, pay-paid, laid but plaid.

Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as vague and ague,
But be careful how you speak,
Say: gush, bush, steak, streak, break, bleak ,

Previous, precious, fuchsia, via
Recipe, pipe, studding-sail, choir;
Woven, oven, how and low,
Script, receipt, shoe, poem, toe.

Say, expecting fraud and trickery:
Daughter, laughter and Terpsichore,
Branch, ranch, measles, topsails, aisles,
Missiles, similes, reviles.

Wholly, holly, signal, signing,
Same, examining, but mining,
Scholar, vicar, and cigar,
Solar, mica, war and far.

From "desire": desirable-admirable from "admire",
Lumber, plumber, bier, but brier,
Topsham, brougham, renown, but known,
Knowledge, done, lone, gone, none, tone,

One, anemone, Balmoral,
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel.
Gertrude, German, wind and wind,
Beau, kind, kindred, queue, mankind,

Tortoise, turquoise, chamois-leather,
Reading, Reading, heathen, heather.
This phonetic labyrinth
Gives moss, gross, brook, brooch, ninth, plinth.

Have you ever yet endeavoured
To pronounce revered and severed,
Demon, lemon, ghoul, foul, soul,
Peter, petrol and patrol?

Billet does not end like ballet;
Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.
Blood and flood are not like food,
Nor is mould like should and would.

Banquet is not nearly parquet,
Which exactly rhymes with khaki.
Discount, viscount, load and broad,
Toward, to forward, to reward,

Ricocheted and crocheting, croquet?
Right! Your pronunciation's OK.
Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,
Friend and fiend, alive and live.

Is your r correct in higher?
Keats asserts it rhymes Thalia.
Hugh, but hug, and hood, but hoot,
Buoyant, minute, but minute.

Say abscission with precision,
Now: position and transition;
Would it tally with my rhyme
If I mentioned paradigm?

Twopence, threepence, tease are easy,
But cease, crease, grease and greasy?
Cornice, nice, valise, revise,
Rabies, but lullabies.

Of such puzzling words as nauseous,
Rhyming well with cautious, tortious,
You'll envelop lists, I hope,
In a linen envelope.

Would you like some more? You'll have it!
Affidavit, David, davit.
To abjure, to perjure. Sheik
Does not sound like Czech but ache.

Liberty, library, heave and heaven,
Rachel, loch, moustache, eleven.
We say hallowed, but allowed,
People, leopard, towed but vowed.

Mark the difference, moreover,
Between mover, plover, Dover.
Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,
Chalice, but police and lice,

Camel, constable, unstable,
Principle, disciple, label.
Petal, penal, and canal,
Wait, surmise, plait, promise, pal,

Suit, suite, ruin. Circuit, conduit
Rhyme with "shirk it" and "beyond it",
But it is not hard to tell
Why it's pall, mall, but Pall Mall.

Muscle, muscular, gaol, iron,
Timber, climber, bullion, lion,
Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,
Senator, spectator, mayor,

Ivy, privy, famous; clamour
Has the a of drachm and hammer.
Pussy, hussy and possess,
Desert, but desert, address.

Golf, wolf, countenance, lieutenants
Hoist in lieu of flags left pennants.
Courier, courtier, tomb, bomb, comb,
Cow, but Cowper, some and home.

"Solder, soldier! Blood is thicker",
Quoth he, "than liqueur or liquor",
Making, it is sad but true,
In bravado, much ado.

Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
Neither does devour with clangour.
Pilot, pivot, gaunt, but aunt,
Font, front, wont, want, grand and grant.

Arsenic, specific, scenic,
Relic, rhetoric, hygienic.
Gooseberry, goose, and close, but close,
Paradise, rise, rose, and dose.

Say inveigh, neigh, but inveigle,
Make the latter rhyme with eagle.
Mind! Meandering but mean,
Valentine and magazine.

And I bet you, dear, a penny,
You say mani-(fold) like many,
Which is wrong. Say rapier, pier,
Tier (one who ties), but tier.

Arch, archangel; pray, does erring
Rhyme with herring or with stirring?
Prison, bison, treasure trove,
Treason, hover, cover, cove,

Perseverance, severance. Ribald
Rhymes (but piebald doesn't) with nibbled.
Phaeton, paean, gnat, ghat, gnaw,
Lien, psychic, shone, bone, pshaw.

Don't be down, my own, but rough it,
And distinguish buffet, buffet;
Brood, stood, roof, rook, school, wool, boon,
Worcester, Boleyn, to impugn.

Say in sounds correct and sterling
Hearse, hear, hearken, year and yearling.
Evil, devil, mezzotint,
Mind the z! (A gentle hint.)

Now you need not pay attention
To such sounds as I don't mention,
Sounds like pores, pause, pours and paws,
Rhyming with the pronoun yours;

Nor are proper names included,
Though I often heard, as you did,
Funny rhymes to unicorn,
Yes, you know them, Vaughan and Strachan.

No, my maiden, coy and comely,
I don't want to speak of Cholmondeley.
No. Yet Froude compared with proud
Is no better than McLeod.

But mind trivial and vial,
Tripod, menial, denial,
Troll and trolley, realm and ream,
Schedule, mischief, schism, and scheme.

Argil, gill, Argyll, gill. Surely
May be made to rhyme with Raleigh,
But you're not supposed to say
Piquet rhymes with sobriquet.

Had this invalid invalid
Worthless documents? How pallid,
How uncouth he, couchant, looked,
When for Portsmouth I had booked!

Zeus, Thebes, Thales, Aphrodite,
Paramour, enamoured, flighty,
Episodes, antipodes,
Acquiesce, and obsequies.

Please don't monkey with the geyser,
Don't peel 'taters with my razor,
Rather say in accents pure:
Nature, stature and mature.

Pious, impious, limb, climb, glumly,
Worsted, worsted, crumbly, dumbly,
Conquer, conquest, vase, phase, fan,
Wan, sedan and artisan.

The th will surely trouble you
More than r, ch or w.
Say then these phonetic gems:
Thomas, thyme, Theresa, Thames.

Thompson, Chatham, Waltham, Streatham,
There are more but I forget 'em-
Wait! I've got it: Anthony,
Lighten your anxiety.

The archaic word albeit
Does not rhyme with eight-you see it;
With and forthwith, one has voice,
One has not, you make your choice.

Shoes, goes, does *. Now first say: finger;
Then say: singer, ginger, linger.
Real, zeal, mauve, gauze and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, mirage, age,

Hero, heron, query, very,
Parry, tarry fury, bury,
Dost, lost, post, and doth, cloth, loth,
Job, Job, blossom, bosom, oath.

Faugh, oppugnant, keen oppugners,
Bowing, bowing, banjo-tuners
Holm you know, but noes, canoes,
Puisne, truism, use, to use?

Though the difference seems little,
We say actual, but victual,
Seat, sweat, chaste, caste, Leigh, eight, height,
Put, nut, granite, and unite.

Reefer does not rhyme with deafer,
Feoffer does, and zephyr, heifer.
Dull, bull, Geoffrey, George, ate, late,
Hint, pint, senate, but sedate.

Gaelic, Arabic, pacific,
Science, conscience, scientific;
Tour, but our, dour, succour, four,
Gas, alas, and Arkansas.

Say manoeuvre, yacht and vomit,
Next omit, which differs from it
Bona fide, alibi
Gyrate, dowry and awry.

Sea, idea, guinea, area,
Psalm, Maria, but malaria.
Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean,
Doctrine, turpentine, marine.

Compare alien with Italian,
Dandelion with battalion,
Rally with ally; yea, ye,
Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, key, quay!

Say aver, but ever, fever,
Neither, leisure, skein, receiver.
Never guess-it is not safe,
We say calves, valves, half, but Ralf.

Starry, granary, canary,
Crevice, but device, and eyrie,
Face, but preface, then grimace,
Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.

Bass, large, target, gin, give, verging,
Ought, oust, joust, and scour, but scourging;
Ear, but earn; and ere and tear
Do not rhyme with here but heir.

Mind the o of off and often
Which may be pronounced as orphan,
With the sound of saw and sauce;
Also soft, lost, cloth and cross.

Pudding, puddle, putting. Putting?
Yes: at golf it rhymes with shutting.
Respite, spite, consent, resent.
Liable, but Parliament.

Seven is right, but so is even,
Hyphen, roughen, nephew, Stephen,
Monkey, donkey, clerk and jerk,
Asp, grasp, wasp, demesne, cork, work.

A of valour, vapid vapour,
S of news (compare newspaper),
G of gibbet, gibbon, gist,
I of antichrist and grist,

Differ like diverse and divers,
Rivers, strivers, shivers, fivers.
Once, but nonce, toll, doll, but roll,
Polish, Polish, poll and poll.

Pronunciation-think of Psyche!-
Is a paling, stout and spiky.
Won't it make you lose your wits
Writing groats and saying "grits"?

It's a dark abyss or tunnel
Strewn with stones like rowlock, gunwale,
Islington, and Isle of Wight,
Housewife, verdict and indict.

Don't you think so, reader, rather,
Saying lather, bather, father?
Finally, which rhymes with enough,
Though, through, bough, cough, hough, sough, tough??

Hiccough has the sound of sup...
My advice is: GIVE IT UP!

mrz · 25/10/2011 11:34

masha I find your posts difficult... your negativity is just about summed up in the poems final line

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