What is the pupil teacher ratio supposed to be at KS1 in England?

[duffybeatmetoit]

Is there an official maximum ratio? Primary school in village teaches Reception and Years 1&2 together with 1 teacher and a part-time teaching assistant. The PAN for each year is 9. Is this an acceptable ratio or should/could they have less/more pupils?

What a horrible story-hope DD is better. Still think, though, you are overly worried by what constitutes 'stability' at this age-and a bit fixated on continuity and particularly 'friends' (which fluctuate hugely at that age). Bear in mind if she goes to nursery elsewhere she will still have a stable family, both employed and unstressed in other ways, support form professionals for her trauma, and a lot of support from teachers and nursery staff in going elsewhere and then maybe returning. You are not sending her to a foreign orphanage for two years then bringing her back, just putting her in a different setting during the day. Many parents change nurseries, many children go to school with kids they do not know. Is it possible after the disaster and shock that you are seeking perfection for her, and finding it hard to make the sort of compromises all parents make because perfection is impossible?

Surely, in these circumstances, nobody should be going to your old nursery anyway-it should be closed instantly?

Then duffybeatmetoit you have been misinformed.

I'm puzzled how the nursery is still operating when your daughter was so badly injured

Compulsory school age
Starting school

In England and Wales, most local authorities have a policy of accepting children into school at the beginning of the term during which the child becomes five. However, the child does not have to attend school until the beginning of the term following their fifth birthday.

In Northern Ireland, a child who is four years old on or before 1 July in any year must start primary school on 1 September that year.

In England, from the school year beginning September 2011, local authorities must accept children into primary school in the September following the child's fourth birthday. However, parents may request that their child does not start school until later in the year or until reaching compulsory school age. A parent will also be able to request that a child attends school part-time until compulsory school age.

adela she is improving thank you. We assumed they'd close the nursery if only whilst the investigation was ongoing but apparently not. I suspect if we had gone to the papers it might have been a different story. My respect for Ofsted and its regulations has been greatly diminished by their lack of concern. According to Ofsted as the experimenting that led to the explosion was out of hours there is no reason for complaint.

As everyone is telling me that I am overly concerned about the impact on DD, I guess the strain of everything that has happened has affected my judgement. The pain she has been in and her bravery still makes me upset now

The experiment might have been out of hours but the accidnet itself wasn't! There has been a....well wouldn't even call it an accident on the premises which led to a child being hospitalised and they didn't close the nursery?!

mrz no-one outside of the formal investigations can understand it either. The thrust of the formal investigation is to see if all the relevant regulations have been adhered to. So (for example) if the nursery advised all the appropriate bodies they get a tick in the box. It all hinges on whether they could reasonably have prevented it happening. If the police bring criminal charges against the youths that wouldn't necessarily impact on the nursery according to Ofsted.

I guess that if the authorities closed the nursery and then found that the nursery had done everything they should have done they could have been sued by the nursery.

The mind boggles as to how failing to check a play space was free of explosives (or anything else harmful) could be reasonable, but....

I'm not suggesting to you either not to be concerned about how sending her to a different nursery and then back to school will affect her, just trying to offer reassurance that I don't think the problems of 'different friends, different place' are as unique of troublesome as you might imagine or that they can't be handled if not made into insurmountable obstacles in your head.

Just concerned that seeking a 'perfect' solution you are set on might produce a less good solution all round-end up suggesting to your DD that settling in is always terrible, distracting you from supporting her in anger about the rules or their inflexibility, etc.

DS2 stopped breathing twice when I was driving him places. Even after medication his experiences were much less varied than DS1's because I hated driving him anywhere, and for a year he was very much a fragile sickly child in my mind. In retrospect think I may have done better to trust him and his resilience rather than create a sense of low expectation and panic around him. Fear you may be doing the same, but don't know enough to comment much. Are you getting the support from HVs and childcare workers that you need, or is this all DD focussed at the moment?

I've known nurseries closed pending an investigation for much less so I'm very shocked.

Duffy, as I understand it the situation in Wales looks different to that in England while actually being the same..

The thing is, in Wales (particularly rural areas), many nursery / pre-school classes are within the school building. In England, though there are nursery classes in some areas, pre-school settings are commonly separate either in management or location (or both) from the primary schools. In both countries, school admission regulations apply for the entry for Reception and in only a very few cases is there any precedence given for a child who has attended a nursery class in the same school (however, many areas of wales suffer from under- rather than over-subscription for schools so this is seldom an issue in practice).

So in Wales, a child may go to the school building, in the school uniform, into a nursery class for the year before Reception. However, that does not alter the rules for entering Reception in Wales - the child still has to be 4 by 1st September to enter Reception. This does look confusing, and i can understand how your informant could have got the wrong end of the stick, particularly as in small Welsh schools Nursery and Reception classes are often mixed. Crucially, in these Welsh nursery classes (even when mixed with Reception) the adult to child ratio must be higher than in Reception or KS1 - I've found figures of 1 to 13 and 1 to 10, but this is 2 - 3 x the ratio in Reception / KS1 classes.

The school you wish your child to enter does not have a nursery class, with an appropriate (and legal) adult : child ratio for a nursery class and a group of children of a similar age. It has a R-Y2 class with an appropriate (and legal) adult : child ratio for children who are already 4.

I understand your distress, but this really does not seem to be an optimum solution for your daughter - she is at an age when she NEEDS a high ratio of adults to children, it would be wrong to put her in a class with very much older children - especially as in my experience (I've taught a R-Y2 class for a training placement and would not willingly do so again) the teacher effort is very much concentrated on the older children (Year 2 teacher assessment and all that stuff).

In my part of England it is also very common to have nursery classes (or Foundation Units with 3-5 year olds) attached to schools but nursery children only attend part time as this is their entitlement and the legal ratio is 1-13 if there is a qualified teacher.

mrz I suspect that the known lack of alternative childcare in the area may be another factor in the decision to let the nursery stay open. It would have been a nightmare trying to find places for all the children affected. Some parents whilst horrified at what happened have said that they are hoping it is probably going to be safer than other nurseries as a result of the incident.

adela the burns unit have been brilliant and we have had a lot of support from the local community. We are resigned to having to make the best of a bad situation. I have just been informed that there are too many children in the school catchment area for next September's intake so she may be destined never to go there anyway. That's life I guess.

KS1 is 1:30, but I've just read the whole thread and as others have mentioned-you aren't talking about KS1, so those ratios don't apply. I'm sorry you've had such a trauma with your daughter's nursery, but asking a teacher to take on a three year old in with a class of EY/KS1 children (no matter what the ratio!) would be a nightmare.

Working parents across the country have tough choices to make, but you can't throw any sort of official guidelines at anyone as they don't apply and you won't get anywhere. I would imagine there are a number of parents who would like their children to start full time schooling at 3 (or even 2!) as it would make their lives easier, but thank goodness, that can't currently happen!

I'm sorry your dd has had such a terrible time, I hope she is fully recovered.

My ds1 has just gone into Yr1 from Reception in the same school. Prior to that he had attended three different nurseries as, due to circumstance, I have had to move a lot in the last 3 years. He is a perfectly well adjusted boy who is making good progress and has good friends. His lack of stability prior to this does not seem to have impacted on him negatively.

As it happens I am a teacher with a class of Reception/yr1/2 children and I am really aware of just how young some of our new intake are. Your daughter (regardless of the legalities) would not be best served by this - emotionally she would be too immature.

I hope you find a solution that works for all of you.

Your poor dd. Would any of the other parents consider a nanny share with you. I don't think I would want my child there if activities involving explosives were going on. How old are these children? I may be unrealistic about teenager life, but I don't recall making explosives in my back garden. Are their children also on site during opening hours? Ofsted may say it is ok but I am sure there are one or two parents who may not agree. Do some investigation into the costs. Not sure if you can claim for the free hours, I know some childminders you can. Depends if they are able to follow the curriculum.

Sorry duffybeatmetoit but if they have had explosives on the site it is a criminal case and I can't believe they would put other children at possible risk until it has been thoroughly investigated. As a parent I wouldn't want my child attending and I'm very surprised other parents are continuing to send their children . I live and work in a rural area (in fact there isn't a nursery in the village where I live and my children had to travel to town) and as I said I've known nurseries closed for less serious incidents regardless of availability of alternatives.

mrz I don't understand it either, although the 17 yr olds originally claimed that it was something else they had been mucking around with and only admitted the truth someway into the investigation. The police were initially satisfied with the original explanation and were going to wait for the findings of the official report before deciding on a course of action. When they confessed the police were called back in and are carrying out a separate investigation as it has wider implications. I can only assume that as the lads have been barred from being anywhere near the premises and the nursery has upgraded their risk assessment regime, that is sufficient to allow the nursery to remain open.

Only the parents whose children attended the session in which she was burnt were informed about what had happened, so many of the parents don't know about it (especially as was during peak holiday time). Those that have found out from other parents have been horrified but the nursery is telling them that Ofsted have cleared them and it is business as usual.

It's really shaken my belief in the whole system of protecting the welfare of children. I am going to email the lead investigator today to get their explanation as to why the nursery is still operating.

She could start school in Wales in one part at 3.5 depending on her birthday, in the LEA I work you can go to full time school on the term in which you are four.

They would of course be in the nursery class in full time education.

daiawnti, yes, that's what Mrz and I have been saying - but the staff ratios for nursery classes are much higher than for Reception / KS1 classes, which is why the OP's daughter cannot (and should not) be included in a R / KS1 class though she would be eligible for a fully-staffed nursery class should that exist (part of full time will depend on local custom and funding).

Yes but she could come to school and could be part of a mixed age nursery/ reception or infant class if needed although this may not be the case for the OP just in the LEA that I work for.

But what would the staff ratio be in your mixed class? 1:13 (nursery class level) or 1:30 (R / KS1 level). My understanding is that it should be the former...

The ratio in a nursery reception class should be 1-8 in KS1 1-15 however if there is say a n/ r/yr1 class then the ratio would depend on where you have the most children say if you had a class of 30 but only 10were n/r then the ratio would be 1 to 15

At least thatbis what my LEA say

That makes sense. the Op wanted to put her nursery age child in a class with a ratio of 1 : 30 - which is why we have been saying that's not possible.

In England she could start in a nursery class or foundation stage unit at age three daiawnti but it appears the school the Op wants to send her to doesn't have a nursery class just a mixed R/Y1/Y2 class and the staffing ratio 1-30. It would therefore be illegal for her to be admitted.
As a matter of interest children in Wales can also start nursery the term after their third birthday (part time not full time)