What do you think the problem might be with dd?

[GooseyLoosey]

Dd is just finishing Yr 2.

Her teacher has finally confirmed to us that her failure to listen/comprehend what he says goes beyond the norm and is affecting her education. I have been worried for a while, but managed to convince myself that there was no real problem and I just expected too much from her. The teacher suggested taking her to the GP as otherwise we will find it hard to access any help at school as her behaviour is great and her attainment is average. I am going to do this, but am trying to work out what the problem might be in advance.

It is not just a failure to pay attention with dd but a complete failure to process what is said to her. Some examples might help:

She will ask what is for tea. I will answer. She will ask again. I will answer again. She will ask again and I will say I have already answered twice - what was the answer I gave. Most of the time, with some thought, she will be able to tell me what the answer was - but she does have to think about it. This happens all the time (but she generally appears to hear just fine).

I was explaining that the plot of a book was about "people looking for water" and her immediate response was "what is water". I said "you know what water is - think". She said "I don't", I said "you do". Eventually she was able to tell me.

She has a favourite episode of a television programme which we have recorded and she has watched many times. Recently she wanted to refer to the episode to me and she described it in terms of what people were wearing and the visual events that happened in it rather than giving a narrative of the plot.

She often watches a programme like Scooby Do and really has no clue who is doing what to who and what is happening.

In terms of attainment - she is a 2a and 2b (pretty much exactly where she was last year). She is the youngest in the year and has a late Aug birthday.

Any ideas?

I must find some food or drink that I can snaffle some some fish oil into.
We used to have oily fish twice a week, but ds2's refusal to eat it means we eat it less.
Am glad I've read this Goosey.

I'm at a loss how to make ds stop fidgeting also, but keep reminding myself he's only little and actually when I look at myself I can not keep still for very long and I'm a grown up.. Wonder where he gets it from?!

We've always used the IQ liquid and they have had that with no problems at all. I wonder if the casules that you all use may have better "stuff" in.

Part of me is worried that I am trying to pathologise being daft and that in reality there is nothing I can do for dd as she is who she is. This thought terrifies me as if it is the case, I think she will find life hard.

Goosey - never stop fighting for your DD. Never believe 'this is who she is'. There is so much you can do to help her.

WowOoo - does your DC eat Tuna?

Goosey - there is no consensus as to which is the 'right' omega fish oil to use. Some experts recommend one high in EPA and some high in DHA.

Studies have been done on Efalex for helping ADHD. LCP Solution

I think the eye-q brand of fish oil is more EPA 'rich' than DHA 'rich'.

So it is possible that switching to a diff brand would help.

But it is also possible that Omega deficiency is not your DCs problem.

Goosey-as Indigo says there is loads you can do for your DD. The things she is experiencing are not an inherent part of her personality but more likely a neurological processing problem.
Our audiologist says that she takes her hat off to children like ours who must find the classroom an utterly exhausting place to be trying to process all the visual and auditory and sensory information coming at them from everywhere when their processing equipment is slightly awry.

Afaik the thought now is that its the EPA not DHA which is more important so you need a produsct with around 3:1 EPA:DHA ratio. However was trial and error for us as EyeQ made DS hyper. We now use ProEFA.

HTH

I was like this at school, and still am to some extent. Convinced I have ADD. I have been known to sit in a cinema and not take in a single word that's being said in the film (my mind is just racing the entire time, thinking of other things)

Because my mind is going nineteen to the dozen all the time, when someone tells me something it quite often goes in one ear and out the other.

What really helps me is to read things (rather than be told). DP also knows he has to get to the point of a conversation really quickly.

My reception aged DS is also showing similar traits. The teachers force him to make eye contact before they ask him to do something

Thanks again all - I really need to gird my loins for this! I think I am just feeling down about the whole thing. I would not have thought that someone else saying "yes, I think your child has problems" would make such a difference when I have really known it all along myself.

Have any of you tried to teach your dcs how to use mind maps? I was wondering if this kind of thing might help dd understand complex sets of instructions.

One more qu - for those of you that have had diagnoses - what is the time framw for this?

Disclaimer: I have absolutely no experience or expertise in these matters - sorry if I'm barking up the wrong tree (it has been known to happen - but what really struck me from your OP was that your DD seems to favour "bottom up processing" rather than "top down processing" - this means she is caught up by individual details but struggles to put them together. Sort of "can't see the wood for the trees". It might mean she can't understand wider concepts - the whole is greater than the sum of its parts IYSWIM, so she might hear the words the teacher says, but she can't put them all together and figure out what they mean.

So perhaps she could read a whole book word perfectly but not actually be able to tell you the plot. Or if she were a pianist (sorry just struggling to think of decent examples!) it might mean she could play a piece with all the required notes/articulation/dynamics etc exactly as written but wouldn't be able to tell you how the piece felt or sounded, and would not put her own interpretation of the emotion into it. She might not understand turns of phrase like the barking up the wrong tree thing because the literal meaning of the term is irrelevant.

I seem to remember that people with ASD often use BUP but you say she's not showing any other signs of that so I don't know. Baffling. Hope you get it sorted :)

Sorry forgot to say, top down processing is more like grasping the concept immediately but not necessarily getting all the detail - back to the piano example, it'd mean playing an emotive piece with good interpretation of meaning but not getting perfect notes/rhythm etc. Or you might recognise a face by a general term "friendly" rather than individual features.

I'm a bit like your DD in that I often had no idea what was going on; even my favourite programmed and books would have me baffled as to the plot (still enjoyed watching/reading them though), and DH can tell me things dozens of times without me really hearing it IYSWIM. I had hearing tests but nothing came of them so it was assumed I was just not bothering to listen. And yet in other ways I'm more top down - piano being one, I was always in trouble with my teacher for it. Long term it hasn't had a negative effect - did well academically etc.

I learn best by doing though, if that helps. Cooking - no matter how many times DH (ex chef) shows me or tells me how to cook a particular new thing I just cannot do it until I actually try it physically with him talking me through it. At college my friend's revised by reading textbooks, that never worked for me - I had to work through endless practise questions (especially in maths, which I am doing a degree in now) or I would not understand the method.

People are complicated! Sorry for waffling again

GooseyLoosey, although I have a much younger child than you, DS1 is 3.5, a lot of what you say in your posts sounds very familiar. Have you considered looking at whether your DD has sensory integration dysfunction? This can manifest itself in many ways, but auditory processing difficulties can be part of it, as can visual discrimination difficulties. What you posted about DD being unable to find things in a cluttered drawer when they are literally right there is a flag for this. My DS has global development delay and SID and for him it affects his ability to listen, follow instructions and also affects his awareness of himself in his environment. He struggles to regulate his sensory input.

It's worth looking at the book The Out of Sync Child for more on this, but basically it details that in addition to the five senses, we also have other senses. Our skin - some children can't bare to be touched by certain textures, some need to constantly get stimulation through lying on the floor, hugging etc.. Proprioceptic - the awareness of one's body in our environment. EG. for my son, he has poor balance, is unable to put his own shoes on, pants on despite being shown 100s of times, and is quite clumsy. he just doesn't seem to get where he starts and the rest of the world finishes.

It's really important that if your DD has this, then she has input from Occupational Therapists and Physiotherapists to help her learn how to regulate all the sensory inputs that she gets on a daily basis and how to then learn from them. For example, a child follows a cat, trying to stroke it, but the cat hisses, spits and tries to walk away. Most children would interpret that to mean that the cat doesn't want stroking and walk away. My DS wouldn't see it like that. He just thinks 'stroke cat, stroke cat, stroke cat', then the cat scratches him and he doesn't get that it's a consequence of his actions. I hope that makes sense?

I know that you are talking predominantly about auditory processing and you've had loads of great advice on dealing with it, but if any of the above rings true then the book The OUt of Sync Child is a great starting point to help your DD.

Good luck.

Fuzzpig that's so interesting. People are complicated, indeed.

I have tried to do mind maps, but ds turns them into a moshi monster doodle festival. I'm going to try again. The results are always fascinating, aren't they.
You could both do one,say about school rules; easy things, tricky things; food we love; ScoobyDo storylines or whatever you'd like her to think about.
I'm doing one later - will update!

Grr - just drafted a long reply which got deleted!

Interesting what you say Fuzzpig. She is certainly a trees rather than a wood girl and clearly at times sees irrelevant detail rather than the main plot. I had never considered ASD as she seems to be quite emotionally intelligent and has several very close friends.

She deffinitely learns better visually. In numeracy I can bang my head against a wall explaining things - but show her and its completely different.

I have written to the school setting out my concerns and the head has e-mailed me back arranging a meeting for September to discuss what intervention if any is required. What troubles me is that she seems to be seeing it very much as a child who daydreams and who can be encouraged to listen better. In my view she listens just fine she just does not hear what is said.

Dd will resist any kind of intervention. She does not like to be singled out or talked about so I have no idea how I am even going to get her to talk to the GP. She also totally denies that there is any problem at all. Any suggestions on that front gratefully received.

My dd was like that. I took her to the docs and she didnt utter a word. When she went for her referal she hardly spoke. Ive just had her school report which is a mass on contradictions

She has her end of KS1 assessment. I dont know if this will help you or if you get one. She sees the special teacher so she has been marked as a W as a child with needs

Speaking and listening 1
Reading W
Writing 1
Mathematics 1
Science 2

Just to add Goosey, i bypassed the school after 2 years of her struggling. I asked somone on here who was great and told me to speak to the Doctor. I got an appointment at the hospital within 2 weeks. She had her hearing test on Friday so am just waiting for the results going back. All together its took about a month so far.

Fifi - she hasn't been given a W because she sees the special needs teacher. She's been given a W because she's not yet a level 1. W means working towards level 1, and should have been accompanied by a P scale level.

I think the top P scale is P8. Ie after P8 is level 1c.

Does it, it says on the bottom of the sheet for children with special needs working within W so i thought this is as she sees the special needs teacher. Theres no p on though. It does say there should be on the bottom between 1-8. Thanks.

DD1 just sails through so i am new to all this

indigo, should there be a number next to the w

Fifi - There should def be a P scale reported, not just a W.

Yes, only children with SEN get a W - by defn of 'SEN'. But like I say, what it really means is that your child is not yet working at a level 1. (ie most children with SEN wouldn't get a W, they'd get a 1, 2 or 3.)

It's really a very bad mark. :(

Have school communicated this to you properly?

Indigo

No i just got the end of year report with the KS1 assessment in. It does say there should be a p scale 1-8 with a W

The school are a nightmare. When i told them she had been refered she seems to be making a massive U turn according to the class and SN teacher. Its a joke TBH. They will not have it that there is something wrong. Last parents evening the teacher said she is lazy. This has gone on since reception but her YR1 teacher was fantastic. She totally agreed with me. Luckily she has this same teacher in YR3 as she has moved classes.

They said she had hearing problems so the hospital refered her for a hearing test on Friday which she passed with flying colours.

I have more or less gave up with the school and willl show the report to the Educational woman at the hospital when i get my next appointment through.

Do you know why the school would be reluctant to admit she has a problem. The school is good boardering on outstanding which they are pushing for on the next Ofstead inspetion. Would this make any difference?

The school are reluctant to admit she has a problem because then you'd ask them what they're going to do about it :(

The teacher has no idea what's wrong or what to do to help. It's far easier to placate you then to teach your daughter.

And of course if the school is bad enough (which by the sounds of it they are), then you'll move your daughter and she won't be their problem anymore. :( :( :(

Fifi - giving up on school isn't really an option. Someone has to teach your DD. Either you HE, or you find a school that will at least attempt to teach her.....

(Although you say she's getting help from a special teacher, so it does sound like school are doing something - I'm just not clear what they are or aren't doing)

GooseyLoosey what you write about your DD sounds so familiar to me - I have a 7 year old DS, also just finishing Y2 (and also one of youngest in the year) who has very similar difficulties i.e. hearing is absolutely fine but struggles to process information effectively. The copying thing you describe is DS to a T - a major coping strategy of his - won't have taken instructions on board, but gets away with it by copying everyone else.

DS will watch an episode of Scooby Doo, or Spongebob, or similar, and appear to be utterly absorbed. And then at the end he'll turn to me and say 'So what happened?' And he's not 'testing' me - it's a genuine question, he really hasn't taken in what's been going on.

To quote his school report, he 'has a tendency to drift off into his own world'.

To quote DS, he 'doesn't have very good listening ears'

DS has an ASD DX, but I've always suspected there is some ADD in there, too, or some kind of APD thing going on. He is also a fidgeter, and very much a visual learner (can really struggle with mental maths, but if he sees things written down or in pictorial form then he's away).

The things that have really helped DS have actually been fairly simple: a wobble cushion to sit on, and a fiddle toy to help him sit still and focus during carpet time, really helped him in reception/Y1. This year his teachers have used prompt cards, along with verbal prompts when necessary, to help DS focus and concentrate. Might things like that help your DD, do you think?

She sees the SN teacher a few times a week. I am worried for her in KS2. My friend works at the local senior school and she has advised me to push for a statement if i think she needs one as it is harder to get one as she get older.

I think she is dyslexic. Her dad was an undiagnosed dyslexic and totally flunked school.

Both the other 2 schools are full. The only one with places has Special measures in place.

I do a lot at home with her and get work home from the school. She has just moved to level 2 readers and is struggling with them. They moved her up to them about 6 months ago then moved her back down.

The school are saying i am trying to lable her and even if she gets a diagnosis there is nothing more they can do for her. They did initially say she had a learning delay but about 4 months ago the SN teacher said she is showing some signs of dyslexia. Now she has backtracked on that and says she is improving. She has improved since i got the appointment with the hospital. I dont think she has improved.

I am at a loss with it TBH. I dont know what else to do.

Fifi

1. Apply for a statement. Yourself. Today. All you need to do is write a letter to the LEA asking for a statement. Model Letter

1. She has dyslexia. All the label dyslexia means is that she is struggling to learn to read. So she has it. She may also have other problems.

1. Put her name down on the waiting list for all other schools that you would be prepared to send her to. You are not trying to 'label' her - you are trying to get her the help she needs.

I have written up what things I have found worked for dyslexia here: www.dyslexiaadvice.co.uk/

You need to stop listening to school, they are failing your DD, and are patronising you. You need to be an awful lot more proactive. Fight for your DD like her life depends on it - because it does.

I am now Indigo. I have listened for them for 2 years and they have sidetracked me time and time again. I made a mental note to leave it till half way through KS1 and i would refer myself through the doctors which i have done.

I didnt know i could get my own statement i tought i had to get refered to the ED phyc and they would do it.

I know i am right and the school are wrong. I am awaiting the follow up from the hospital.

Thanks for all your help indigo i was starting to feel a bit lost with it all. I shall do the letter now and have a read.

Ask GP to have Auditory Processing disorder checked, you do need a paediatrician check for whatever it is.