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Primary education

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Teachers on strike - do they usually name names?

413 replies

hester · 20/06/2011 17:35

Just had a letter from dc's school, warning us of strike action at the end of the month and listing by name those teachers who will be on strike, and those who won't. They will close the classes of the striking teachers, and keep open the others.

Is this normal practice? I would have thought it would expose individual teachers to some irate parents? I also expected that they would treat it as a whole school issue, provide what cover they can, maybe suspend lessons and hav a games day in the hall. And if they couldn't do that, close the whole school?

OP posts:
Elibean · 23/06/2011 19:05

But then, things being bad for one person do not make it better, or more ok not to speak up for what seems wrong, for another.

I'm glad the suffragettes had 'tantrums' Hmm

Strange description.

MrsGuyOfGisbourne · 23/06/2011 19:06

There is a considerable difference bewteen the real struggles people have faced in the past and a refusal to accept the reality of the Pension crisis.

mrz · 23/06/2011 19:18

what is the reality MrsG?
the government's reality?
The House of Commons Select Commitie's reality?
The National Audit Office's reality?
Hutton's reality?

aliceliddell · 23/06/2011 19:28

www.j30strike.org/ will give you lots of useful information if you want to defend public sector workers.

MrsGuyOfGisbourne · 23/06/2011 19:28

The reality is that people are living longer and that pensions have to reflect that - everyone has to face that - why should some consider themselves special cases? It is simple maths, especially worrying that the teachers of all poeple don't seem able to do the maths.

mrz · 23/06/2011 19:35

The reality is that teachers have already recognised that and agreed to changes in pension contributions and retirement age ...

mrz · 23/06/2011 19:44

The union agreement with the Government in 2006 made changes to the Teachers? Pension Scheme that made it sustainable for the long term. The House of Commons Select Committee and the National Audit Office have both confirmed that the cost of public sector pension schemes will fall as planned. Lord Hutton?s final report says that public sector pensions if unchanged from now would fall from 1.9 per cent of GDP now to 1.4 per cent of GDP in 2060.
This agreement made provision for teachers to pay more for their pensions, or for other changes to be made if the valuation requires it. This shows the willingness of teachers to accept their share of any increasing costs ? but the Government wants to abandon that agreement and impose changes without any informed basis from a valuation and, for the move from RPI to CPI, without any negotiations at all.

ivykaty44 · 23/06/2011 20:06

No I am not a teacher and usually don't have a lot of time for them - but they are showing they are not willing to be walked all over and are standing up for what they believe in and fair play to them

ivykaty44 · 23/06/2011 20:09

everyone has to face that - why should some consider themselves special cases?

So why do bankers still get bonus then and not have their pensions slashed
Why do MP's not have their pensions slashed?

why are they special cases, so special that they don't even need to think about facing cuts

As for notice there has been notice of around 3-4 weeks that the strike would take place on 30 June 2011 and more to possible come in September and October, it wasn't kept secret and the date was displayed in the newspapers and online

sun1234 · 23/06/2011 20:14

Mrz, can you think of anything that may have changed between 2006 and 2011 that may have impacted on investment returns? something big that made headlines at the time...

MigratingCoconuts · 23/06/2011 20:27

something that was not caused by teachers but by private business and banking?

Why is it that the honest, relatively poorly paid have to pay for the greed of them?

sun1234, you did not answer my question. I really am interested to know the statistics behind the idea that my pension is unsustainable.

EggyAllenPoe · 23/06/2011 21:01

i have a bank pension that lost 85% of its value last year (i often say this. it dosn't change. everyone at the bank who joined after 2003 has the same type of pension...) That was due to the stock market crash, which was due to the collapse of the sub-prime market...in the USA. So the only bank staff on final salaries joined before 2003.

there is a debt per household of £33k due to the previous govts spending. There is an additional £33k per household owed in effect due to the unfunded naure of public sector pensions. Sustainable? i think not.

if there is a profession offering better security and benefits, kindly tell me what it is, so i can apply or it.

MigratingCoconuts · 23/06/2011 21:11

there is a debt per household of £33k due to the previous govts spending. There is an additional £33k per household owed in effect due to the unfunded naure of public sector pensions. Sustainable? i think not.

I would be very grateful to know where you are quoting these figures from please.

sun1234 · 23/06/2011 21:17

ok.. there are two basic types of pension. The first type is the final salary scheme (sometimes known as a defined benefit scheme) and the second is a money purchase scheme (usually known as a defined contribution scheme). Almost everyone had the first type until the late '90s.

By the late '90s pension trustees, actuaries, investors, governments and just about everyone was becoming worried about what they called the "pension timebomb". Essentially this was the babyboomers coming up for retirement. Suddenly there was going to be a large % of the population in retirement and even worse from the perspective of pension trustees, medicine has taken such strides forward that people are now living longer. So there would be more people crossing into retirement than ever before and they'd each be drawing their pension for more years than ever before. This didn't just affect Britain, it was a major problem for every developed country in the world.

The problem is that to pay these pensions the money must be earned somewhere: it is not just a total of contributions paid in during the working years handed back in regular amounts during retirement until death. A group of people need to produce things at a profit for the money to be made to keep funding the pensions. It arrives in the pension fund as a series of share dividend payments are bond interest payments. The old national insurance/ state pension system was different in that those who were working had their contributions spent on those who were retired whilst trusting that the next generation would keep them in their retirement in the same way. But either way, the young have to keep the old.

By transferring to a money purchase scheme what happens is that your money gets invested as it did in a final salary scheme but you get the benefit of it at the end (when you retire your investments get cashed in and are used to buy an annuity which is a type of government bond which pays out at regular intervals until you die). BTW annuity rates fell badly meaning you got a smaller return so the government changed the law sometime around 1997 so that you could choose when to buy your annuity and it could be any time from 65 to 75 years of age.

The major downside of money purchase schemes is that if your investments fall in value then you get a smaller pension. With final salary schemes, the employer has to top up the pension when there isn't enough money to meet the commitments to current pensioners. The investments in both schemes are broadly the same, but the future pensioner carries the risk in a money purchase scheme whereas the employer carries it in a final salary scheme.

Obviously as an employee it is better to be in a final salary scheme. However, most private sector companies have now switched to money purchase and closed their final salary schemes with various bribes and threats to make their employees accept the migration. For many companies, it was not about saving cash: it was the difference between survival and going under.

In the case of teachers and other public sector employees, the employer is the state and the state is funded by the taxpayer. The tax payer is both private individuals and private companies. That means the average man in the street and tax paying companies will be subsidising teachers pensions.

Since 2006 the financial world has turned on its head. The credit crunch actually started that year and pensions would have even felt under strain back then. It wasn't all to do with "greedy bankers". It was much more complicated than that but in essence it all started to go pear shaped when the US economy took a down turn and suddenly the people who'd got home loans they could barely afford in the good times started to default on their repayments. After that things were a mess and everything came tumbling down like a tower of cards.

People were worried in 2006 but no one envisaged the carnage that ensued culminating in the near collapse of the whole financial system in late 2008.

MigratingCoconuts · 23/06/2011 21:34

thank you.

Is there a cut off point in age for these changes or will it affect everyone.

what I mean is, how would this affect someone say, 5 years off retirement/ or 25 years?

will the change affect everyone?

ivykaty44 · 23/06/2011 21:35

In the case of teachers and other public sector employees, the employer is the state and the state is funded by the taxpayer. The tax payer is both private individuals and private companies. That means the average man in the street and tax paying companies will be subsidising teachers pensions.

you missed out a whole groups of people here - was that on purpose? The state employees more staff than any other business and they also pay tax and are the tax payer and are supporting their own pensions into the bargin. The government doesn't move money off shore and use tax avoidence systems such as other large companies use to avoid paying tax P Green and tesco are two of the well known at this legal game.

jollydiane · 23/06/2011 21:36

May I say you have explained this very well sun1234.

I have no claim to understand it all but the money does not come out of thin air. Every single penny that goes to a public sector worker receives has come from the private sector. I just don't get how pensions can be self funding.

MigratingCoconuts · 23/06/2011 21:44

yes ivykaty, I thought that too....

ivykaty44 · 23/06/2011 21:47

well there are 6.1 million employed in the public sector and 23.8 million in the private sector - so if you have one quarter of your work force working and paying tax in the public sector how does that equate to every single penny that goes to the public sector worker comes from the private sector?

Do private sector workers not receive state pensions, do public sector workers not pay tax?

sun1234 · 23/06/2011 21:48

ivykaty44 - i think of public sector workers as private individuals. I sort of see it as they do a job in the public sector but they are private people with their own concerns the rest of the time so I wasn't leaving them out.

And can I just say again that i really do sympathise with teachers and other public sector workers over this? I went through it myself and I didn't like it one bit.
However, I have a friend in the police and they are being even harder hit than teachers - they are now expected to be on the beat, wrestling with drunks on pavements etc - late into middle age. They are just as unhappy but as officers of the crown (as opposed to employees) they are not permitted to strike.

EvilTwins · 23/06/2011 21:48

Jollydiane- do you think that public sector employees don't pay tax? Hmm If only...

MigratingCoconuts · 23/06/2011 21:50

They are just as unhappy but as officers of the crown (as opposed to employees) they are not permitted to strike.

If he could strike, would you support his decision?

sun1234 · 23/06/2011 21:56

honestly I have such faith in the judgement of my friend that if she could strike and she choose to, then, yes, I'd support her. But, wow, if the police went on strike...

jollydiane · 23/06/2011 21:57

Look I feel your pain, I wish things were better. I am happy(ish) to pay tax. I can see the wonderful work that you do.

Where does the money that you pay your taxes with come from? The original source is the private sector as we are the only area that generates profit.

Do you think that I am being mean to my employees not to give them a final salary pension? A business cannot withstand the unknown cost of a final salary pension. I must know how much it is going to cost. If you use the same logic I don't see how any organisation can write a blank cheque.

sun1234 · 23/06/2011 22:01

Just to change the subject a bit.. state employees pay tax but if they were just paid a net salary with 0% tax, then the net effect would be the same: their salaries get paid out of taxes taken from the earnings of the private sector but they don't actually make any new money for the country.
They often do a valuable job which we'd all be much worse off if it didn't get done but I can't think of any that are valuable in terms of actually producing something that would earn some money for Britain. Teachers are about as close as it gets

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