Everyone who lives near me and can afford it seems to be sending their kids to private schools…

[sanssucre]

That's it really, I guess I've just been really surprised that none of them has even considered the local primary schools. DD will start school next year and I'd just always assumed she would go to one of the decent primary schools nearby (there are several and I'm confident we'll get into one).

Thing is, we could actually afford to go private (it would mean some sacrifices but it's do-able), we've just always wanted her to have local friends, go to a nearby school, mix with a wide variety of people etc so I haven't explored the independent option at all. However, in all honesty, the fact that so many people in a similar financial situation to ours haven't even bothered to look round the state primaries is making me wonder if I'm being hopelessly optimistic. But seriously, is it really worth spending thousands of pounds a term to teach a 4/5/6-year-old? I'm not being sarcastic or judgy, it's a genuine question, I just honestly want to know what can be so terrible about a reasonable state primary school that so many people wouldn't even give it a second look.

I appreciate that my post might raise a few heckles. I know we're very fortunate to be able to afford private education if that is the way we choose to go. I also understand that this is a very contentious/emotive issue but I'd be really grateful for some honest opinions.

Yes, zlaya, Germany does not have such an entrenched class system; in fact all children get a bloody good education regardless of their background! It it is down to the fact that selection goes on at 12/13 which is frowned upon in this country. Children can choose between vocational qualifications or academic or a mixture of both. Alas, the comprehensive system thinks everyone is of the same academic ability with the same interests etc.

Well said magdalene, this classful society of ours is is not doing anybody any good, especially not to our children, if less importance is placed on the background of a child(less pigeon holing) and more on choice and true ability we might just produce "tennis player ace" and win the damn Wimbledon in the next five years.

Yes, English people have an exceptionally bad attitude towards learning foreign languages and I would love my children to be reasonably fluent in one or two other languages. Their cousins are growing up bilingual or trilingual and it's a fantastic asset to have. However, since the reality is that in international business (and aviation and other industries), most people are going to communicate with each other in English, it is harder work to decide which languages might be most useful to you and then go on to learn them to a sufficiently high level for them to be of real use. Learn English and you know you have the chance to practice and use it constantly - whether watching films, talking to foreigners who have that as their only common language with you, or doing business. There isn't another language quite as useful, although Spanish has the merit of being spoken by a lot of people worldwide, and Chinese might be useful given the way the world is going, or you could learn an obscure language in the hope you could get good enough at it to become an interpreter one day, although you'll probably find too many fluent English speakers who grew up in the country to get much of a look in. Or you could learn a language on the basis that you might fancy having lots of holidays there in future, or even working in that country one day (would put me off Chinese - I don't fancy living in China).

Yes, I am hoping my children will learn at least two languages so they have the option of getting out of this country! It's hilarious looking at what's needed for a 'C' grade in GCSE German. You don't need to know any grammar at all and the vocabulary is so basic that even a non speaking German could work it out. But, hey, who cares when people in Germany, France, Italy, Holland etc are all working hard to learn English and end up writing it better than native Brits? The education system here is shameful

Spot on magdalene, that probably explains the fact that our boy speaks German so badly, after years of schooling, but there isn't much we can do about it, short of sending him for period of time to Germany(summer holidays, six weeks) in hope that he will pick up bit more and sort out his vocabulary. Rightly said us as parents, we don not know where our children will end up, therefore it's very important to make sure they have right tool for life ahead.

I have to say, I lost track of the point of national examinations at 16 and 18 years old when they started down the path of all children taking the same style of exam at 16 and a constant stream of badly written and badly marked exams that could be retaken at a whim and which tested only a small portion of the syllabus at a time. It's like asking someone what they thought of a book before they've finished it - which, incidentally, also takes all the fun out of the book, because some idiot won't stop asking you stupid questions about it when you're trying to get on with reading it.

The education system (or, arguably, the culture generally) in relation to learning languages is shameful. I don't think its entirely shameful in every other sense.

My brothers' children are in the French education system. I have cousins in France. Rabbit is right, there is a huge variety of schools there too - and flaws as there are here. My mother (who is French) prefers the English system to this day, my brother thinks pros and cons in each, etc etc.

Isn't there something in the German education system that selects children very early on? I vaguely remember a German parent at dd's school complaining about that aspect of the German system. And we have Swedes who prefer aspects of our system to theirs too.

I totally subscribe to the idea that we have lots to learn from other European countries - just not to the idea that education here is inferior in every way, in every school.

I do find the references to "choice" interesting. I thought the problem with the UK system was supposed to be that we now allow children too much choice and they are choosing all the wrong subjects???

We looked at 3 state schools and 3 private for dd.

We just didn't like the state schools, all three had very good/good ofsteds... There were 30 to a class, no real specialised teaching, all 3 feed into the same crappy secondary, rarely do any children pass 11+ and tbh i didn't think much of the childrens behaviour/attitude that i saw.

We also didn't like 2 of the private schools, little outdoor space, one was just too small (6 to a class) and then we saw the one she goes to now and loved it and still do. However we ended up moving house to be closer which has worked out well for us all round really.

I was privately educated, dh was state educated.

I would ignore what everyone else says, half of them won't have even looked round the schools. Go out and see all the schools and then choose which one will suit your dc best, if you're fortunate enough to be able to pay, it shouldn't be about the money, you are lucky to have a choice, and you may well still choose state once you've seen them, but i wouldn't rule anything out.

I know - we should have national sports tests at age 7 to identify our future tennis talents (you need to catch them reasonably young, although 7 may already be a bit late); and at 11, IQ tests to stream out those children worth giving an academic education to; co-ordination tests to weed out children who wouldn't be safe with a hammer and chisel; music tests to identify children with a good musical ear; personality tests to weed out those with insufficient drive and ambition; and only give choice to children who are good at everything. And not bother too much with broadening children's horizons beyond the area in which we have assessed them to be most talented, as they'd be wasting their time working on something they're not good enough at to start with. We could then dispose of a few children along the way when our assessment of the economy indicates that there are too many children of the wrong type - or re-house them in schools for people expected to do the most basic forms of labour that don't require much of an education, as we still need lots of those. Anyone wanting a rounded education for their children should be very rich and pay for it. All other children will learn what will be most useful for their country.

I think I shall suggest my reforms to the coalition government.

Rabbitstew, that is taking it a bit too far, on more positive note it is not all doom and gloom, there is nothing wrong with little bit of competition it develops oneself and promotes selfworth. We have a holiday home in Croatia and every year we holiday there by the sea, every morning I see children young as four carry there kits, plunge int the sea for there daily waterpollo practice, children from ordinary households,(olive growers, bakers, plumbers) and little bit later in the morning you see different bunch of children on there way to the tennis courts for there daily practice, where we live here in the UK it is considered to be pretty well of, but I don't see working class children running to there sport practices during holiday season, that is the fundamental difference between us and them in Europe, children are given equal opportunity regardless of how much there parents have, that is how these small nation produce athletes and national pride, "in the healthy body healthy spirit. We can learn from them, that is the benefit not negative.

zlaya, I think you have a very rose tinted view of the rest of Europe - and a slightly negative view of the situation in the UK. Where I live, there are public tennis courts open to everyone (for free) and I see all sorts of people use them. Not always for tennis, though... (in fact, it was a nice flat surface for my children to learn to ride their bikes on...).

kids from our local estate (ie most of the kids at dd's school) spend their entire free time playing football, basketball or rounders, lots of them have (reasonably priced) tennis lessons every half-term at the local courts, and everyone's favourite pastime is swimming.

Maybe its my French genes, but seems to me the entire British class system is sports obsessed

My son's state primary is excellent but has only 16 wrap around care places and has 200 children at the school. I was one of the lucky ones to get a place for September but lots of other parents weren't.

Several people we know told us they chose private for the wrap around care.....it made me realise what a big factor this is!

Rabbitstew, I don't thing I do, I am fortunate enough to be able to spend lot of time in Europe, some things to the with children are so much better over there, OK maybe I am bias a little bit, we have lot of different nationalities in our family, but still I can help but be in love with wonderful way of life they enjoy.

I have relatives living in other EU countries and in-laws from non-EU countries and have travelled widely, as well as having lived outside the UK myself for a while. I still think you have very rose tinted spectacles, zlaya. Although there is an awful lot about the UK I would change, I would not actually start with a conversion of the UK education system to anything like the German or French systems. I would move heaven and earth to avoid having to bring my children up in London, though, however much fun I found it to live there as a young, free, single adult.

Elibean....not half as obsessed as blinking Aussies! My DH is Aussie and sports is a real issue for him....he was taking it into account when we looked for schools....I was as it's just not a major point for me....if a child excells in a sport it will be noted and then they can join a club and play at county level...school is for learning with some games thown in in my opinion.

Nobody is saying that we should change UK education system for German or French, but if is there something to learn perhaps and adopt from there approach, I am all for that. Certain aspects of education system needs a change, certain aspects of our lifestyle needs a big change.

MRD am with you there.

I'm all for learning from others, whilst valuing (and being willing to share) the bits we do best. 'We' being whatever - a school, a family, an individual, a nation.

Why do families choose to send their children to private schools, sometimes ignoring good state school alternatives? Lots of reasons:

• In the absence of other criteria to judge schools by, a feeling that 'it's expensive so it must be better'.
• the fact that in the main private schools offer a more 'traditional' type of teaching and learning (very teacher-led transmission of information, highly paper-based written recording) which matches the parents' experience of their own education and so is perceived to be 'better'
• Lack of local state school places.
• A social 'norm' amongst a particular peer group or family.
• Smaller class sizes.
• A wish for a peer group that is 'more like us' and which excludes those from deprived backgrounds who are perceived to be 'trouble'
• A wish to avoid having children with SEN in the class.
• Attaching a high value to facilities such as sporting facilities or music facilities within the school.
• A wish to match a child with a particluar strength with a school that is designed around that strength (e.g. an unusually academic child with a very academic school)
• Attaching a high value to one part of the curriculum - sport, languages, science - which is the specialism of that school
• The linking in some people's minds between very neat, standard, old-fashioned uniform with a disciplined learning environment (odd, but true)

Of course, many of these are open to challenge. Teachers in private schools do not have to be qualified. Very traditional teaching may mean the whole class working on worksheets for much of the time, with very little differentiation or active learning (I compared notes with a friend who teaches the same yeargroup in a private primary - her plans made me laugh. Whole class teaching followed by worksheets or writing, all the class doing the same, planned out by the month. In my case, 5-way differentiated lessons matched to each group's next steps, continually re-assessed from day to day to move the children on.) There may be small numbers of children, but if all of them have to work on the same thing all the time each child may in fact be doing work that is less suitable to them than in a class of 30 working in 5 groups of 6 on differentiated work according to their individual ability. Not all private schools have better facilities, many do not. A lack of experience with SEN means that if your child does have e.g. dyslexia or Aspergers then they may be less well catered for than in mainstream. Bullies come from all social classes and all backgrounds. You may choose an academic school for your child but if they don't fit the mould as they get older they may be quietly removed rather than taught.

Some private schools are excellent. Some state schools are excellent. It is not a case of one being uniformly better than the other.

Many smaller preps have an inclusive attitude...my DDs class of 12 (prep) hass two children with SEN and it's important...a rounded education does not include filtering out the different or the poor.....we are on a full bursary as isanother child in the class....econmic backgrounds are mixed.

I think many people who ignore private as an option, have not researched properly....they assume all the kids there will be loaded...and that bursaries are only for the very able...not so.

MRD,

Apologies, I was probably not clear.

I was not saying that every one of these will be true in every case. Just that people's reasons for choosing private primaries could be one or more from the list, and will be different in every case.

I went to a deeply academic private secondary, on a full scholarship, because I was a very, very academic child and the only local alternative had only just stopped being a secoindary modern. That was my parents' reason for choosing that route for me.

What is true for one family / school is not for another. For example the wrap around care - state schools where I live have fabulous wrap around care which caters for as many children as need it from 8 am to 5.45pm. Some of the private schools only offer unsupervised time in a hall or library for much shorter times...

Why people aren't considering good state schools is a mystery. Perhaps it's just the extreme of suggesting that preference and choice is key-if you're being told it is absolutely necessary to get the 'best' school then why not assume it's the one you pay for, or pay for one if you think it is 'better'?

Yet the money does make a difference, and one you need to think about. Here, for example, prep fees are between 6 and 8 thousand a year. That equates to every book DC might wish to read, to a whole heap of tutoring or lessons in precisely their own interests, and even, at the silly end of the scale, to a house extension with their own sodding library and study area if you save it away for the seven years.

I know that sounds silly, but it is the choice-what to do with the options you (unlike me) have. There is a lot of focus on this thread on the school and how you might measure it, and why private might not be best. But, even if you think the private school 'better', the best solution for your child might be a 'good' school and the ability to tailor learning outside precisely to your DC

teacherwithtwokids - not all private schools are as you describe. Mixed ability teaching does not work. What's wrong with uniform? I am sure there are SEN kids who go to private schools too. Interestingly we have a very high proportion of SEN children in this education system: could it be something to do with low expectations? The curriculum? I think we need a combination of traditional teaching and innovative teaching which is found in the best state and private schools. What is wrong with teachers teaching? It's not just about skills!! You need knowledge to have opinions and think creatively. For what it's worth, not all private schools attract parents who are snobs and I've seen many parents in the state sector avoid the parents from the estate. Rabbitstew - what's wrong with living in London?

"
"Several people we know told us they chose private for the wrap around care.....it made me realise what a big factor this is!"

It's also something people say when they don't want to say "We chose St Custard's because we are crashing snobs."