Severe Writing Problems

[IndigoBell]

DD (Year 3) has severe literacy problems (so please, I'm only looking for comments from very experienced teachers or the like)

Her writing is no more than a jumble of letters. School have just given her a scribe on her last assessment because her work can't be read at all. (No physical problems - her handwriting is fine)

She has very recently more or less got the hang of reading and has just been assessed as a 2b on an optional SATs paper. But her writing isn't improving yet (Apparently she's a Level 1 when working unaided).

She does an hour a day of Read, Write, Inc at school (and has been doing so for 3 years). And we obviously read every night at home.

What on earth shall I do with her at home?

AccelRead/AccelWrite?
Word Wasp?
Hornet?
Apples & Pears ?
Nessy ?
??????

What structured programs do you recommend?

Her writing is really bad. I've spent the last 4 years trying to teach her to read. And now the task of trying to teach her to write just seems impossibly daunting :(

Not to mention she's missed all of literacy last year to do RWI, so she needs to be taught absolutely everything :(

I've applied for a statement - but obviously chances are she won't get one.

I know it's what you believe. But do you have any personal experience of this? Do you actually know any dyslexia teachers and what their recommendations are?

In 3 years of researching this I have not found anything the school(s) should be doing that they ain't. I have not heard anyone here or anywhere else telling me anything that should be done for DD and isn't.

All my research keeps coming back to phonics or whole word learning. Neither of which work for her. I really, really don't believe a 'specialist dyslexia teacher' would be able to help DD. They dont have a magic wand. but even so I would use one if I could - but I can't. They don't exist round here.

You can assess her progress all you like. But what will you do when she fails to make progress? There really are only so many things that can be tried. And I'm fairly sure they have all been tried over the last 4 years.....

DD can't learn whole words either. It took her 3 years to learn to read the 45 high frequency words. (but she can't spell them all yet)

One word a week won't make much difference. Not when she still spells 'it' wrong...... She has to be taught every single word - not just the 'tricky' ones.

Did your dyslexia tutor do anything besides teach phonics and whole words?

Yes I have personal experience. Recommendations would change depending on the individual child - it's not possible to make recommendations without actually sitting with the child and observing/assessing them and how they respond to different learning experiences. Hasn't she been taught as part of a small group or am I getting confused? IME 1:1 with a specialist teacher works and very quickly - small groups are far less successful for children with dyslexia.

Really, the only way to learn words is by phonics and/or whole word learning. It is just by luck if you find the right tutor who is experienced enough to find the best way of helping your DD.

If you can't find a tutor then why don't you do a google search on schools (probably secondary schools) that have big SN departments and find out the name of the teachers who come in. If you google their names you may find that they also do private tutoring.

Indigo can I pm you?

IndigoBell - due to my DS(1) 's improvment over the last 2 years, his tutor is now helping him to construct sentences and do things like reading comprehension.

I am sorry you are finding it so hard, I really sympathise with you. I guess I have probably had it a bit easier as my DS's do have some understanding of phonics and can spell words like "it". Have you had a recent psychologist assessment?

She's had both small group and 1:1 - but far less 1:1 and all with TAs and not a specialist teacher.

She's getting 10 hours 1:1 with a teacher next half term. We'll see how it goes.....

She also did a bit of NESSIE and toe to toe. But she said that toe to toe did not work on my DS as he learns words visually. She has also helped him with his times tables, learning them visually.

Yes most kids can spell 'it' :). Most kids with a dx of dyslexia are not nearly as bad as my DD.

But I do know others in RL as bad as my DD. Leaving Y6 on level 2 etc. And tutors haven't helped any of them....

A dyslexia tutor like yours wouldn't find anything to do with DD that hasn't already been tried.

DD has had an enormous of support and interventions, since reception, both at school and at home. None of it has helped very much.

Just trying to help Indigo.

I do realise how frustrating it is, but remember how you started this thread saying how your DD had finally 'got' reading? So surely that is progress? - In tiny, frustratingly paivful steps, I can imagine, but progress.

Sorry, 'painful'

I know you are trying to help. Everyone tonight has been very supportive. Thanks all of you.

Einstein or someone said for every complicated question, there's a simple - and wrong - answer.

The people on here like maize and maleuca who teach dyslexic children full time have all admitted there's a few they just can't teach.

ClenchedB - yes there has been remarkable progress this term. Going from a 1b in reading to a 2b in one term.

Which is why I'm trying to work out how to build on it and continue to accelerate her progress .....

'there's a few they just can't teach'

• but your dd has shown that she can be taught! It's complex, difficult, hard and toe-curlingly frustrating I'm sure, but as you said, she's made masses of progress in reading in one term. I know dyslexic pupils in Y6 (and some older, even) that would love to be able to read at that level. That doesn't help your dd, of course. It's brilliant for your dd that you're so involved and motivated - hang on to the positives, though, it's so important for both of you.

The 'Rolls Royce' of evidence-based spelling programmes is the Direct Instruction Spelling Mastery, published by McGraw Hill, often available on ebay as it is expensive. You often yourself Indigo mention 'Apples and Pears' so I am surprised you have had no success using this, as it is a top-notch spelling programme which I always use, and successfully, at even non-optimal twice a week use.
The example of your daughter's writing is plausibly phonic, not random, as no-one would be able to decipher it otherwise, and there are letter reversals and digraph muddles. The lack of punctuation is another matter for instruction.
Quite frankly, I would be leaving independent writing on the back burner until there was more progress with first reading, and then spelling.
There is an excellent DI writing programme called 'Expressive Writing' which requires a reading age of about Grade 3.
I think that home schooling your daughter sounds like the most productive way forward, and familiarising yourself with DI.

www.mheonline.com/program/view/4/2/2215/0076105350/

we I wos wocig hom fom sco it wis bucrig bawn wiht ran wen I got hom I and litl awenro wur wet sow I brib as lit lat wetn cut a cob so I rap him gp anb got him a tiso

When I was walking home from school it was pouring down with rain. When I got home I and little A.... were wet. So I dried us little lot ... ... .... .... So I wrapped him up and got him a tissue.

She seems to me the sort of child whose problems with reading and writing are made much worse by the inconsistencies of English spelling. I am not saying they are all that?s causing them, but they make life for anyone with learning difficulties much harder than in languages with simpler writing systems.

For reading it?s not quite so bad, because recognition is easier than reproduction. But the spelling progress of slow readers tends to get delayed, because learning to spell English is greatly assisted by the imprinting of irregular spellings through reading ? ( for words like ?home, roam, out down, so slow?).

If u have the patience, work on her spelling with her a few minutes each day. Start with revising regularly spelt words (A fat cat sat on a mat.) Gradually progress to more complex (pain, rain; home, phone, stone). U can find lots more such regularly spelt words on the Learning to Read page at www.EnglishSpellingProblems.co.uk .

Once u feel that she?s got the basic English spelling patterns (which may take a few months) move on (gently) to teaching her the ones with some irregularly spelt sounds. Using words from her writing would be good for that (was, walking, school, down, when). She seems to have some reversal problems as well (bawn, anb, brib ? down, and, dried).

Seeing her writing, I think it might be good, to introduce a few of the irregularly spelt words already, along with revising basic patterns. At least some of the most high frequency ones (when was walking rain down...)
drawing her attention to the stupidly spelt bits in them (wHen, wAs, wALking, rAIn, doWn).

Malaleuca - thanks. That is exactly the kind of advice I was looking for.

The DI stuff sure is expensive! But I'll keep it in mind.

We tried Apples & Pears last year. I was very impressed with it, but at that stage it was too hard for her.

And what I can't decide now is whether to go back to A&P - which is a good program - or to use one of the other programs, or whether to do as you also suggest and leave it for a bit longer and concentrate on reading....

I like Acceleread/Accelewrite because it separates out handwriting from spelling (because you type the answer not write them) and because the computer tells DD she is wrong - not me.

I also like apples and pears.

And the new Hornet Literacy, by the makers of toe-by-toe also looks very good. It concentrates on auditory discrimination - which might be DDs main problem.

So I can't decide what to do .

You've probably seen them already since you've been researching but there are links to the benefits of cursive handwriting which mungogerry mentions here:

footbridgeinteractive.net/content/handwriting-children-dyslexia

The "muscle memory" benefit of cursive writing would also apply to typing once you get over the initial choosing the letters problem which your daughter has. However, it may be possible to get her started by not starting with learning the entire keyboard but by learning e.g. two of the 45 most common words (making sure her hands rest on the correct guide keys and stretch to the correct key from there) and then increasing the words slowly - initially building up the typing equivalent of a reading "sight vocabulary", before introducing a typing programme. When you tried her on the laptop before were you using one of the typing programmes for dyslexic children (listed here www.dyslexic.com/typing) - if not it might be worth a try.

My suggestion is a little different. It may be helpful to contact a specialist Dyslexia school. I don't know where you are in the country but I do know that the one I've linked to has had great success with a friend's very severely dyslexic son. I am not trying to suggest that you should send your daughter to such a school but think it may be valuable if you were able to attend an open day. You'd hopefully see classes in action and be able to discuss the methods that are used. I have no connection with the school I have linked to other than that of glowing reports from a close friend! I am sure there must be other similar schools if this particular one is nowhere near you. Good luck!
www.moonhall.surrey.sch.uk/home.html

Indigo - your daughter needs to have carefully controlled instruction of single syllable , mostly cvcc/ccvc words so that her phonemic segmenting is accurate, before going on to 2 syllable words and those with morphemes. It isn't at the moment. Whilst doing her 'free writing' she continues to practice her very faulty segmenting. The high frequency words, such as 'it' she is not writing from 'say or think the sounds in order' but from ill-remembered collection of letters, perhaps the legacy of memorising the 45 hf words previously.
I can't speak for Hornet as I have never used it, but it looks ok up to a point. There is not the scaffolding that A & P provides, or much sentence dictation, or attention to spelling high frequency words, or a clear morphemic strategy. The directions aren't that clear, so there is a danger the adult talks too much to explain things!
A & P was designed by people who are very familiar with Spelling Mastery. It is lightly scripted , and easier on the purse for sure.
If you already have A & P I would use that, you can erase the pages she has completed in the workbook. Hornet can provide addtional practice with those cvcc and ccvc segmenting.
I would not have used any spelling programme before a child was already reading. I like my 'remedial' children to be reading at about an end of Y1 level before I start on Apples and Pears Book A. By this time their handwriting is ok, and I can skip all the handwriting pages, and they generally know most of the basic letter/sound correspondences. There is a placement test on the website so you do start at the right level however.

Just looking again at your post Indigo. I would not use a keyboard as presumably your daughter will have to be learning where the right keys are and you need her to concentrate on the spelling, not keyboarding. (unless of course she already knows this ) But as handwriting is not a problem I can't see why you would not stick with handwriting.
A & P and Spelling Mastery move in small steps so generally speaking children are experiencing success, so you are in the position of saying 'yes!'

Thanks Malaleuca. That helps a lot. I'll try A & P again. (Wish me luck :) )

And thanks everyone else too for their support and advice.

I second infin's advice to look at dyslexia schools. My neighbour's son got a place at Fairley House school, funded by our LEA, which is supposed to have amazing interventions and results. He was severely dyslexic and his writing was probably more severe than your dd's, but he's now due to take his GCSEs and doing incredibly well.