Any experiences of Kumon?

[Shaxx]

I'm considering it for ds1. 10mins a day for increasing arithmetic skills and confidence sounds very good.

Does anyone use them?

As someone already mentioned, it is a ripp off. They are aiming to keep the child on the same level for as long as possible. Even for a small error or a spelling mistake, my Dd was made to repeat the same sheets for months, not only the sheet that she had done wrong, but the whole level. I changed the centre, but the same methods applied. She was even returned one level back, no matter that she had already passed it at the previous centre. So, basically, as it is a self learning system, why did I had to pay for the same worksheets times and times again?

By the sounds of what some of you are saying, this is the best way to switch kids off for good. Maths is fun and can be used in so many ways, it doesnt need to be a chore to learn it properly.

My experience of Kumon maths is parents deperate for their child to achieve a level 3 at KS1. These children are pretty good at calculation, but often don't get level 3 because they can't use these calculation skills in to solve number problems as I haven't told them which operation to use. (very simple e.g. Billy buys some eggs. They come in boxes of 6, he needs 30 eggs, how many boxes does he buy? ... Child "Is it addition?" Me "What do you think?" Child "So its a subtraction then?" Me "Let's look at the question. What are we trying to find out?" .... etc. They get so hung up on doing a "sum" and getting it "right", they can't unpick a question to know how to solve it. I find it often teachs skills that force a child to run before they can walk securely.

Well, I suppose that if you want to switch your child off maths for life by forcing them to do repetitive sums over and over again each day when they don't want to (toffeefudgecake and others) then fine.
I haven't heard anybody report that it teaches any sort of understanding of maths, or mathematical thinking, not to mention enjoyment. Those are the things that are vital to progressing.
But hey, your money, your child.

Clam, what switches a child off maths most is not being able to do it. To be able to do it takes practice. Getting good at maths is possible for nearly all children - but if at primary level you presume learning must equal enjoyment you actually create maths misery at secondary level for so many kids.
My experience with dds is that understanding of maths and mathematical thinking can come if you have strong numeracy skills but not vice versa.
I don't do Kumon so can't comment on it as a particular method but its just shows a lack of understanding about maths to claim good progress can be made without lots and lots of repetition. It is also undeniable that lots of 'boring repetition' can lead to astonishing progress.
Abigails - isn't the point that the child you mention has got numeracy skills from Kumon (a big bonus) and once taught how, they can use these skills to answer word problems? I also know quite 'mathsy' people that are very critical of the comprehension style approach in yr 2 because it is testing comprehension over mathematical ability. My own dds seem to be able to quickly get to grips with word problems if I do a few with them but they have very good reading comprehension levels. To a large extent they test language skills at a time when children need to be spending time bonding with numbers.

I think the misunderstanding comes in part because the KS1 and 2 tests appear to be sensibly grounding kids in the problem solving skills they will need in life. But secondary maths teacher friends (and my physics teaching husband) tell me that this is not the right emphasis to become a successful mathematician at secondary level. It takes lots of time to teach kids to answer tricky word problems and it isn't necessary at this stage, when they need to build a rock solid grasp of number.
Schools wanting to make their teaching relevant do lots of practical problem solving and then some, (like my dds old school) won't even teach rote learning of times tables at junor level. That is tragic for the pupils experience of secondary maths.

I'm glad you posted Camicaze.
Of course, my main aim in trying Kumon is to give ds1 the practice to be good at maths. I'm hoping this will give him confidence and therefore a love of learning.
I have cousins who grew up in Asia and they laugh at us when we struggle with what they think is simple mental maths, even though I did some rote learning at primary school (I still know all my times tables as we had to recite one every morning at primary school) I don't think we do enough.
I think there is something to be said about this Eastern style of learning.

Thanks! As far as maths goes I think you're right Shaxx. In this country we have no culture of parents taking responsibiity for children's learning (its viewed as pushy hothousing) or of requiring children to do dull work that goes against their inclination. But people don't want to think that there is a price paid further down the line for this luxury.
I read a survey recently that found that 4-5 year olds in urban China are already 20 months ahead of their UK counterparts in maths. I don't suppose I would choose a Chinese style education for my children but I do think we have the balance wrong and don't help our children by teaching them in such a way that the majority don't get confident using numbers when they are nearly all perfectly capable.

While I agree Kumon has a place in drilling children in calculation allowing children to get more complex sums right, my concern is that it doesn?t really help them to understand numbers well enough to allow children to transfer skills. Yes, children need repetition, but there are more exciting ways of doing it. IMO maths does need to be real life as well as a page full of sums at any age. I?m not saying the NC progression is the only way, or that it is completely right, but it?s the system we work with and the criteria teachers have to assess against. We can?t award level 3s just because they can complete pages of sums correctly.

Some children do love Kumon, but I know just as many that hate it. Several parents have reported tears and tantrums at the thought of a session. It also worries me that errors are seen as failures. The children are only 6 or 7 FFS. So many children are so worried about getting it wrong they are reluctant to try. Camicaze you are lucky that your DD could pick up on problem solving after some input from you, unfortunately that is not my general experience with Kumon tutored children as they are so obsessed with having a sum to get right rather than being able to discuss how they could work it out with me.

As for someone?s comment that Chinese children are 20 months ahead, we end up in the debate is faster better? What impact does the ?must get it right? have on well-being? Many countries (who?s children achieve ?better?) criticise the UKs early emphasis on learning. (Opens can of worms and runs!)

But if you feel it works for you and your child, go ahead, but don?t assume because they are on Kumon they will do well in school assessments without the ?Using and Applying? skills. Also I feel there are better systems out there for parents that want to support their child.

PS As a year 2 teacher I never expect children to rely on their reading comprehension to access problem solving. We put them in practical activities or I read the questions to them. I have quite a few Level 3 mathematicians who are working at 2C reading.

The thing about China is that they stay better and our maths success as a country is pretty low. (Interestingly in China they have not begun formal schooling at the time of these tests, its just part of nursery education.) As I said I don't think I would choose a Chinese education for my children but they are getting something right with their maths education that we are getting very wrong.

The whole justification for our primary curriculum, centered on enjoyment, is that it promotes self esteem. But what effect does being 'rubbish at maths' at secondary school have on your wellbeing? Is asking a child to do something a little dull and monotonous really so bad? As I said, I don't do Kumon so can't comment on it individually, the lack of explanation does sound a bit odd to me and I don't see why mistakes should be viewed as failure. But I can comment on the importance of practice and repetition to become numerate, for which Kumon is criticised. Maths is a skill and teaching in our country seems like a driving instructor that week by week moves the learner onto more and more difficult situations, just because they seemed to understand, when they haven't had the chance to practice between lessons. It would be no surprise that this instructor didn't have a good success rate and neither does maths education in our country.

AbigialS you have to work within the NC but what I am saying is that in terms of a child's maths education for secondary level they are much, much better off being really numerate than having their precious maths curriculum time spent showing them how to answer word problems that they will be weaker at anyway without strong numeracy skills. One word problem takes the same time as a page of 'sums'. Where is the opportunity to really master a skill by doing it over and over again? A page of sums and then a word problem at the end wouldn't be so bad... Thats why progress is so astonishingly rapid if you do some formal stuff at home. In twenty minutes you do more actual calculations than your child will encounter in a week at school.
Regards comprehension. When my dd sat her KS1 SAT the teacher didn't explain the questions to her - that would defeat the object of the question. Children may have had the question read to them but they had to work out the calculation needed (comprehend it) for themselves. The primary curriculum is so full and so although I don't dispute the worth of problem solving it appears to be at the expense of real numeracy. As I said the heavy focus on practical problem solving seems intuitively correct but its not producing what my friends in secondary maths say they want.

Oh dear, so your secondary maths teacher friends are saying that the national curriculum at KS1 (and KS2) does not prepare children for KS3 and beyond? As a EY / KS1 specialist in an infants school I have little knowledge of the current secondary maths curriculm (I'm an old fogie who was at school when it was still O levels & my DC have a few years to go until they are at secondary), but I do find that worrying.

Oddly enough many struggling children understand what they have to do if you present it in everyday terms - I had 8 sweets and I ate 2 how many left? much better than 8-2=

We have started using something called Big Maths
www.andrelleducation.co.uk/BMFreebies/CLICsample.zip
5 mins a day on each aspect

Interesting mrz. I've been on Big Writing / Big Talk training and use aspects of it, but somehow I missed they've introduced maths. So thank you.
(trying very hard to avoid marking 30 long writing tasks!)

Interesting discussion

I have a yr2 DC, and I agree that while she is great at comprehension, she could do with a bit more repetition of the sums to make the process of working out the answer sink in. I had been thinking of Kumon, but I think it may be too intensive and put her off.

She gets straight away that it is supposed to be addition, or subtraction, but then struggles to get the answer. We have tantrums. Then she gets frustrated, guesses the answer and gets cross if I try and explain how to work it out. She just wants me to tell her if her guess is correct.

AbigailS - you mentioned that there are better systems out there for parents who want to support their child. Could you tell me what they are and how to access them, as I am such a parent. Thanks

My son did the Kuman english. It did help initially, but proved to very repetitiveand eventually found it extremely boring. As others have said it does not give you the reasons why the answers a re right, but just right. Hope it helps.

I've been thinking more about what the 'magic' ingredient is in my dds home learning that has advanced them both so much compared with school work. I don't think its traditional sums as such. I did traditional sums at school and I'm rubbish at maths. I think the magic comes from lots of practice at each level until you really master it. I do about 15 minutes about 5 times a week (more in the holidays) but I don't move the girls on till they have really and truly 'got' it. I'm doing 'finding the difference' at the moment with dd2, (using larger numbers going over the 10's boundary e.g. 43-15) We've been at it for about 7 weeks on and off so she whizzes through the page now. I sometimes ask them to learn number patterns which they can then use (e.g. ways of making 15). I thought it would be better for them to infer and learn rules from doing lots of practice but they seem to make better progress when explicitly told the rule followed by loads and loads and loads of practice so they really understand the way the numbers work.
The reason traditional 'sums' are useful compared with practical problems is that you can do much more practice in a short space of time. Its not that I think problem solving is wrong, just that its essential to allow time for masses of practice.
I know school can't make the same progress as I can individually with my child but the amount of practice on each area is miniscule at dd's school compared with what we cover in just 15 minutes a day at home. I know without a shadow of a doubt that I had not intervened to help dd1, that maths would be her worst subject and now it is easily her best. I thought she was naturally poor at maths and now know children's potential in maths is immense.
ps Its true they don't always want to do it!

Explore learning is more interactive and children are encouraged to ask for help (something my DD1 used to find hard at school) and they think about how they get to an answer.
Best of all, they don't have homework or endless repetition and the kids like it as they get 10 mins 'golden time' and cards to collect.
It's helped my DD1 a lot, especially with her confidence.

our friends daughter went to kumon for about 2 years, She basically was in a very high performing private school and was slipping below average, and the school warned her parents that she needed extra help as she wasnt going to pass the entracne exam into seniors. (They suggested extra help either through school (££) or with a private tutor etc, and her parents decided to try Kumon)

they believe Kumon actually helped her get above average and she passed the entrance exam. She is a below average student, and since stopping going has started to slip again, but they dont seem concerned anymore, which does confuse me as she is now 14!

Hi there..i am a mum of a 9 year old. I wonder weather u still have the used kumon worksheets? I am willing to erase the answers and reuse it for daughter who is strugling with basic addition, subtraction skills. I am having a hard time and cant afford for tution. I do know few of her classmates who attend kumon but refused to give the used sheets. I can also get those scanned and give back. I can send a prepaid envelope.I am keeping fingers crossed.My email address is [email protected].
Kind Regards

Hi there..i am a mum of a 9 year old. I wonder weather u still have the used kumon worksheets? I am willing to erase the answers and reuse it for daughter who is strugling with basic addition, subtraction skills. I am having a hard time and cant afford for tution. I do know few of her classmates who attend kumon but refused to give the used sheets. I can also get those scanned and give back. I can send a prepaid envelope.I am keeping fingers crossed.My email address is [email protected].
Kind Regards

Hi, i would be greatfull if anyone has got used kumon math worksheets. I can erase and reuse it for my 9 yr old who is weak in maths. Pls dont throw away...i can pay for the postage cost. Keeping fingers crossed.

good post camicaze.

A friend has started Kumon with her son. I have absolutely no idea whether it's a good teaching method, or what exactly it's teaching. But her confidence has increased and so has his. It seems to be the focussed attention from a more confident parent who gets more time with the tutor that is helping that family.

my own son is probably in a minority in that he is excellent with number bonds but poor at aspects of comprehension. He would be marked as excellent at maths if they just did number bonds. But it's probably better that he has to deal with the comprehension side of things.

Hi Sharma

I don't think you're likely to find used Kumon sheets as the teachers take them in after they're used.

But I found this link site useful as you can generate worksheets from it.

www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/maths/numberskills.html