Any experiences of Kumon?

[Shaxx]

I'm considering it for ds1. 10mins a day for increasing arithmetic skills and confidence sounds very good.

Does anyone use them?

I did years ago. Youngest dd was not very good at maths (like her mother) so she joined a class as I thought it might help. She hated the repetition of the exercises so she stopped, it didn't help her one iota. I can see the idea of it but it was tedious.

I don't rate Kumon tbh, I'm a yr2 teacher.

I have a very able child who loves maths and correspondingly seems to enjoy Kumon, although he'd be good anyway at calculations and his problem solving skills are lagging behind, as Kumon doesn't cover this.

It involves endless repetition with no understanding of WHY the answers are correct or incorrect - not helpful at all for a child who doesn't "get" numeracy, ime.

How old is your ds? In primary I can't see that any extra help outside school makes much difference - they're kids, and evenings and weekends should be spent relaxing with your family imo

There are lots of alternatives and kids need variety to keep interested.

Kumon seems to be filling in lots of worksheets and not much else (from what I have read on this forum).

my dds found it very repetitive and boring when they went for a trial lesson.
And they have to do homework. If you want your dc to do some maths exercises why not get one of those booklets from Smiths. Much cheaper than Kumon.

It's a lot of money for what it is -- it's basically £45? a month for a bunch of worksheets. There's no teaching involved, no explanation, no mention of concepts or how to apply the calculations. It's very rote-learning, very Japanese, somehow.

For a younger child, save your money and get workbooks from a bookshop/stationers -- the DK ones are good, as are the Bond ones and Letts. They cover a whole range of different topics, and test children's understanding as well as just memory.

For an older child who is struggling, you might as well bite the bullet and get a tutor -- although it seems like more money, it probably works out at the same annual outlay since Kumon runs right through holidays (and no, they don't reimburse you for missed sessions, even though the sessions are 10 mins with no teacher input). With a tutor you get an hour of one-to-one tailored to your child's strengths and weaknesses. It's a no-brainer.

Seems a waste of time to me. Probably more better to practise numeracy in other ways, e.g. normal household type work, asking her to measure things, add, divide, multiply etc. more practical and may appeal more to her and may give her a much better understanding.

Thanks. I'd heard it was repetitive but thats supposed to be what its about. Its more about being quick at arithmetic than mathematics, I guess.

I feel the need to defend Kumon. My son has done both maths and English for two years. Thanks to Kumon he is now national average for English (not bad for a boy with dyslexia) and about 2.5 years ahead on his maths.
The repitition works for quite a few dyslexic children for English who find it difficult to put things in their visual memory. In maths he is doing work now that he would not otherwise have have got to until his first year secondary - he is cuurently in year four. The other advantage is the daily exercises over the holidays particularly over the long summer holiday keeps his brain active, so unlike other kids he does not revert while not at school. That said he does hate it!

Computer programmes and websites can also be good for repetitive learning. Whizz.com and Mathletics are two good ones. Mathletics is great for basic facts as well and you compete against other students around the world. Both very different.
In addition, there are hundreds of really good websites online taht are free and it is good to try different sites to get used to different styles of questioning.

The big downside of only learning through one programme, whether Kumon or something else, is children can sometimes struggle to relate to the question if it is presented in a different format - ie as a word problem. So presenting and learning in lots of different ways is the best solution.

Maths is a skill and like all skills you get better through practice. Children are so unused to 'boring repetition' that it can seem hard work initially. However, if your child can persist the progress is amazing.
My dd was average in yr 1 and hated maths. I didn't want her to be 'bad at maths' like me and so I started to teach her myself at home, using 'boring repetition.' The fact is 'boring repetition' is magic. She is now yr 3 and I guess approaching 2 years ahead. And she is emphatic about her favourie subject - maths! She might have moaned (alot) along the way but now she finds it easy and fun.
Don't buy a WH Smith book. It doesn't offer anything like enough practice of any one area for your child to make progress. The argument that Kumon doesn't explain 'why' might be so - but once you have explained 'why' most children need lots of practice to really master a skill. A golfer having learnt a shot will not play it a few times and then move onto the next shot. They will hit thousands of balls until they have mastered the shot. Children are often taught 'the next bit' at the point when they have shown understanding. The secret of my dds success is her rock solid and unshakable grasp of basic number work that comes from lots of repetition.
The importance of repetition was a revelation to me. We get so caught up in the idea of raw talent in maths when so much is actually about practice.
No, theres no need to be pushy with a young child if you don't want to - but don't kid yourself that their standard in maths is fixed genetically - its just not.
I didn't do Kumon but have bought Kumon work books through Amazon.

Roadart mentions that using one system doesn't help with word problems which is true. What I've found is that when you want your child to do word problems they might not be able to do the first few without help, but they get the idea very rapidly. Also, interestingly, they do apply their maths in every day life perfectly readily which I'm guessing is because word problems are as much comprehension as a real test of practical application. My dd faced with a packet of 20 sweets and knowing 5 children are present will happily volunteer 'thats four each but might misunderstand the same sum when put in a wordy problem.
Through trial and error I realised that at infant level lots of time spent on word problems is a poor investment.

Word problems are another skill but understanding the problem won't help if you haven't had the practice to get a firm grasp of number and word problems just don't give as many opportunities for practice.

Camicaze and others that mention raw talent and the importance of practice here may be interested to see that Mumsnet are arranging a Q&A session with Matthew Syed, see the sticky on the secondary education board.

Can an average football player become a champion if they try hard enough, can a minor intellect become a major genius etc?

I'm a former Kumon instructor, now maths blogger. Kumon does work but it's hard work for the parents and students and it's possible to replicate the positive aspects of Kumon using online programs like Maths Whizz or using a DIY Kumon method using online worksheets.

Whichever method you sign up to, expect it to be a long-term process. In fact Kumon themselves say that it takes 6 months until students start working on material that's at their age level (rather than ability level).

Thanks to Carolinemaths's blog, I discovered Maths Whizz and enrolled my dyslexic son on it. Before this, he had been doing Kumon. He hated Kumon passionately. He found it very, very boring. However, it did mean that he made progress in basic arithmatic and that he learnt his times tables. He also discovered that you had to work at things to get better at them.

Personally, I did not enjoy having to trapse off to a centre once a week for Kumon and I hated having to have arguments with my son about why he had to continue to do Kumon. I still find stray Kumon pages hidden away in cupboards and under furniture, where he secreted them to get out of completing the full worksheets. Once he threw them all out of the window, but I retrieved them and made him finish them.

Also, Kumon does not teach your child how to do maths. They get the worksheets and have to figure it out by doing them. The maths tutor told me this worked, but my son could certainly have done with some one-to-one explanations sometimes. Certainly, I remember sitting down with him and explaining how to do multiplication because he was in tears of frustration over his multiplication worksheets.

For a while, after giving up Kumon, my son didn't do any extra maths, but I knew he needed something. I looked into private tutoring, but it was too expensive. Maths Whizz is the perfect alternative. It is tailored to your child's 'maths age' and, unlike Kumon, it is fun. It is computer-based, so no excursions to centres are required. It is cheaper than Kumon. And it rewards your child with 'credits' which they can spend on online Maths Whizz games (which incorporate more maths) or virtual toys for a virtual bedroom. My son aims to do it for 20 minutes a day and his 'maths age' has improved already, after only one month of use.

Maybe Kumon suits some personalities better than others and some children like rote learning and structure. It certainly didn't suit my son.

I don't know many children that would be begging to do Kumon worksheets each evening. Kids just aren't ever asked to do work of that sort at school. The problems of asking your child to do a monotonous task, has to be balanced against the undoubted efficacy of practice. I agree that child friendly products are probably a good compromise but I think you have to just keep on eye on whether the child has had enough practice before they are moved onto the next thing. They should be pretty automatic - have a real sense of mastery. Even then its best to revisit stuff regularly.

My experience of Kumon is seeing my sister (in the US) put 3 of her kids through it with the 4th to start soon. She's had them doing this for years (at least 3), the kids hate it and it's hard work for the mum too but she swears it's improved their maths significantly and none of the kids has gone on strike yet. She also points to the discipline aspect. I do know we've been on a few family holidays and at every opportunity (daily) out come the Kumon sheets, even at the airport waiting lounge (well why not I guess).
My DS will only be starting school this September but I'm reluctant to impose this on him, we'll see I may change my mind. Will look at the Maths Whizz site mentioned above.
Amuses me that the Kumon logo is this little face with a straight-line mouth, they'd never show a happy face .

I too am a great fan of Whizz. It has been excellent for teaching strategies on how to do something, and moves up step by step for every topic covered in maths.

The only downside is you must get your children to revise revise revise on the lessons they have had. They should keep doing replays, and set up challenges to improve their speed (and confidence). It is all to easy to keep moving on - a) because you get more points and b) to see their maths age improving. But there are some topics that do not get repeated regularly enough and without practice they forget how to do something.
Practice, practice, practice, revise, use the lessons with materials to show them what they are learning to ensure they are understanding as well.

It is a fantastic site and is still interesting and motivational many months later. But it should not be used as the only teaching tool. Children still need to understand numbers physically as well.

When I was fourteen or so my parents sent me for kumon because I was very bad at maths. Yes it was boring and needed lots of repetition but I can now do addition (albeit slowly) in my head. It taught me patterns that I now use. So yes useful, also the kumon scheme I went to offered small rewards when you completed a set of workbooks (a funky pen, keyring or notebook type thing) that did help to motivate me.

Hmm ... having read the various contributions, I am only strengthened in my view that I would most definitely not ask dd to do Kumon. I think that a love of learning is the most precious we and schools can give our children, so the last thing I would like is to put young children off learning through forcing them .... I think the key difference between a good and a bad teacher is that a good teacher makes learning fun!

I'm amazed that all of you manage to get your dc to do any form of revision at all. My dc were incredibly resistant and refused pointblank most of the time no matter how much cajolling, bribes,threats or removal of priviledges.

I used to work for Kumon. I realised it was time to quit when my boss told me I wasn't allowed to help a girl who was really struggling and in tears over long division. I helped her anyway though, I couldn't bear to see her so upset. She went away happy and confident, but only because I'd broken the Rules.

It's a really manipulative programme. They start the child off at a really low level just to give the appearance of more progress and of course to make sure the child attends for longer. It teaches nothing about actual maths, it's just recall, and favours speed over thought or enjoyment. It's just playing on parental paranoia.

Culturemix - the Kumon logo is supposed to show a 'thinking face', but my DS was not the only one who thought it showed a miserable face!

I do appreciate that its a tedious daily task but it only apparently 10mins a day. I do think it would have good results.
I know a couple of people who send their children to Kumon and they don't seem to have any issues getting their kids to do it.

I think its mainly arithmetic which I think is a an excellent skill to have.

I think I'll try it and see how it goes. I wouldn't dream of forcing ds1 to carry on if he really, really hated it. Thanks for all your input.

It was roughly 20 minutes a day for my DS, Shaxx. My son covered adding, subtraction, division and multiplication, including his times tables, and he is still good at doing sums. It served its purpose for us. No harm in trying it to see how it goes. And I do think that it is a good thing for children to learn that practising is necessary to learn any skill.

My son really, really hated it for a significant length of time before I allowed him to give it up. To get results, they do need to stick at it for a while.

Good luck.

I don't have any personal experience as such, but a couple of my friends have their children doing the program and they have nothing but high praise for it. When I went to one friend's house she showed me the material they use, and I must say I was by it. One book (not a full-length sort of book, but more a booklet) had to be completed each day and they were nothing but sheets and sheets of basic Maths which seemed repetitive, boring, and oh I don't know, almost patronising to me. Why would a child be made to do the exact same sum hundreds of times - why? I don't think the child is treated as an individual and his/her needs catered to accordingly, but just made to work through the set "books" robotically everyday.