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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

Anyone preparing their child for Gramm'e'r school?

27 replies

pickyourbrain · 06/05/2011 17:25

Clever child, mum can't even spell the word

Anyone preparing their child for grammar? When did you start? what did you do? Any tips?

Is 8 too young for tutoring?

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southofthethames · 07/05/2011 14:02

I'd say start just the year before unless your child has any serious maths or English problems at present. 8 would be too young. (Not speaking from own experience, just what I've heard from others.)

Original poster

pickyourbrain · 07/05/2011 15:23

Thanks for the response. Maybe a tutor during year 4?

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southofthethames · 07/05/2011 15:51

It's worth asking tutors what they recommend. They don't want a bored child or a pushy parent, so they'll tell you what is needed. Can start asking if 3 months is enough, then the tutor will say "no, I always advise starting at year x". (That said, I'm sure some very able pupils could probably get by with just 3 months beforehand
or less!)

DollyTwat · 07/05/2011 16:04

I would like ds1 to go so I've found a tutor. He's in yr4 and she said to start in jan 2012. Shell let me know if she thinks he needs it or not.

Original poster

pickyourbrain · 07/05/2011 21:40

thanks that's all great advice. so dollytwat that will be just after christmas in his last year of juniors? and when do they take the tests?

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Lilyloo · 07/05/2011 21:44

We have been using a tutor from middle of year 4 , ds is quite clever but it has made a difference picked up on his last parents evening. He takes the test Sept of y6.

DollyTwat · 07/05/2011 21:47

He'll still be in juniors in yr4 he's 9
But yes just after Xmas and I have no idea when they take them. At 11 presumably.
Does anyone know?

Original poster

pickyourbrain · 07/05/2011 22:09

Just checked the website ogf the school I want and its the november of the year before admission i.e. those wishing to start sept 2012 will take their tests this november. So yes, the January previous to that seems a good time to start tutoring, then maybe a break over the summer and refreshers come the start of their last year. DD is a July baby so she'll only be 10 and a hlaf feel kind of sad to put her under that pressure.
I'll come back in a year or so and ask for advice on getting them motivated enough for the tests but relaxed enough that they don't beat themselves up if they fail!

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EvilTwins · 07/05/2011 22:14

" DD is a July baby so she'll only be 10 and a hlaf feel kind of sad to put her under that pressure"

Don't then. Imagine the pressure she'll be under when she has to spend 7 years at grammar school when she needed intensive tutoring to get through the exam.

Sorry, but it sickens me that parents think it's acceptable to force their year 4 child to undergo tutoring in order for them to get into a grammar school. Who benefits here?

I am a secondary school teacher in an area with grammars (don't teach in one, BTW) and I have daughters in Yr R. When they are much older, we'll look at whether they're likely to do well enough to sit the grammar school exam.

IMO, tutoring for grammar school exams should be banned. Then the children who are most suitable will get in, rather than the children whose parents can afford the extra tuition. That, after all, was supposed to be the point of grammar schools, wasn't it?

DollyTwat · 08/05/2011 09:11

Eviltwins whilst I do agree with you, I know that all the other children being put forward for the 11+ will get tutoring so ds1 will be at a disadvantage if he hasn't ever seen the type if questions before.
If I thought he'd struggle at grammar school I wouldn't bother, but he won't, he's very clever gets A's in everything. However there are do few places he needs to be in the top 10% of all the children to get in.

When I went there two grammar schools so not so much competition.
I also seem to remember being tutored by my teacher even then.

IndigoBell · 08/05/2011 09:43

I believe the marks for the 11+ are age adjusted. So that younger children actually need a lower mark than older children..... (but the marks told to you are all standardised. You don't get told their raw mark. )

OliPolly · 08/05/2011 09:51

Oh come on, this whole 'stop tutoring kids for grammar' or 'tutoring should be banned' is really getting too much on MN - or maybe I have read too much on this

No one in their right mind would push a child into 11+ if they think he/she stands no chance of passing it. The reason why people tutor is so that they get the children ready for the exam Does it really matter if you take the slow and gradual revison from Y4?

Tutoring at home is no different from paying for a tutor. I think people should do what they feel necessary for their children - it is part of parenting isn't it?

WhatsWrongWithYou · 08/05/2011 09:59

We're going through this with DS2, he's in Y5 and started about halfway through last term. Tbh, we're happy to do it ourselves as we did with DD, but he wanted to try the same tutor his mate had.
We'll still be doing papers with him occasionally, to be clear in our own minds he's up to speed.
Re. the age; yes a July birthday is young for the year, but this is adjusted for in the marking. I wouldn't let the child's relative young age for her year put you off, or deny her the chance on that basis.
Agree there's no need to start in Y4, however.

teacherwith2kids · 08/05/2011 10:03

I live somewhere with a 'hyper selective' grammar school with no catchment area. Children apply from up to 25 or 30 miles away, so c. 100 applicants for every place. Those 100 will anyway be the top of the top of their primary schools, so at a rough guess they take the top 0.1% of children.

However, they have had to create special classes and groups for children who cannot keep up with the work once at grammar. Why? Because children have been so intensively coached to a single test - it is quite usual here for children to go to private primaries that teach intensively 'to the test' for 7 years and ALSO have a tutor twice a week for the last 2 years - the test no longer picks up children for their genuine intelligence, it picks up children who have been taught to do nothing else but the test, and struggle when finally at the school.

I refuse to play this game, despite having an exceptionally bright child. I am slowly introducing DS (Year 5) to the format of the test, just so that he knows what to do when faced by it. That is all he will do. If he gets in, then that is because he is genuinely bright enough to cope and thrive and get the enjoyment out of being in that environment. If he doesn't, then the local comprehensive is a good one - one side effect of the 0.1% is that the comprehensive school caters for 99.9% of abilities and so doesn't have the 'cream off' effect that happens in some grammar areas.

My son's teacher, who has 2 sons at grammar school and so knows the system well, is absolutely supportive of, and has totally recommended, my approach. She wishes, as do I, that a test of unknown format was administered 'in school' on an unknown day so that the grammar tests geuinely picked out the children who are most suited to that type of education, rather than the whole industry of private schools and private tutors being built around it.

Original poster

pickyourbrain · 08/05/2011 10:06

I'm sorry eviltwin I don't agree. My DD goes to school in an area where a significant proportion of the class do not acheive anywhere near what she does. 80% of them dont have english as first language and DD along with another 3 students has always received teaching outside of the classroom for a small amount of time so she is not held back or frustrated with the slow pace of the class room.

She is a high acheiver, gifted & talented, what ever you want to call it. however if she is tested alongside students from other loacal schools with far smaller classes and children who have had a better start in life than most of her class mates, I don't think she would stand a fair chance.

It's not about cramming in order to pass a test. I'm no expert but I understand the tests are verbal and non verbal reasoning so they arent something you can 'fake' any way. It would be like studying for an IQ test. But I feel she would definitely benefit from tutoring in order to get her up to speed with her peers.

I would tutor her at home but I don't feel like I am qualified as not particularly acadamic. I have been saving for this so I am able to pay.

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Original poster

pickyourbrain · 08/05/2011 10:10

That is very interesting regarding the marks being adjusted for younger children. Thanks for that info.

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WhatsWrongWithYou · 08/05/2011 10:10

pickyourbrain, as you pointed out, you can't 'fake' these tests. By the same token anyone with a reasonable level of intelligence can get sample papers from Smith's and go through them with their child.

We promised DD £1 for every point she got higher than us and she soon built up a fair old stash of cash!

LovelyDaffs · 08/05/2011 10:11

Dd1 is at a good grammar and got in with no tutor, b.ut a few weeks of practise with me at home. Dd2 is just as bright and in year four, but this time I've found myself swept along with the hysteria and have pencilled in a tutor for her. Ds is in year three and I'll also admit to getting him to do the odd bond book (age appropriate not age 11). I've got a whole lot more caught up in in since the criteria have changed for the two local high schools and we are no longer likely to get into the good one.

It's easier said than done to let them be and not tutor, who can blame any parent for wanting their child to have a good education. Dd1 is having an amazing education and I would walk over hot coals for dd2 and ds to have the same.

Original poster

pickyourbrain · 08/05/2011 10:23

Thats the problem when the other local schools are shite it's hard not to get a wee bit hysterical. I simply can not have her potential go to waste or have her go to one of the other two local schools. But I can't afford private.

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LovelyDaffs · 08/05/2011 10:28

I would however say that you need to be realistic about how likely your dc is to be able to cope with the work. There's a child in dd1s class that dd says isn't very bright and they all think must have been tutored like mad to get in, she has been put on some sort of warning and told if her grades don't improve she'll be asked to leave, this is year 7. How can that be good for the poor child, shed have been better off at a less academic school.

IndigoBell · 08/05/2011 10:34

First of all you have to know what tests your grammar school uses.

Some use verbal and non verbal reasoning. Some test Maths and English.

I agree that verbal and non verbal reasoning tests will require far less tutoring for than Maths and English.

spanieleyes · 08/05/2011 10:34

I have boy in my class who has been heavily tutored. He will be going on to Grammar school with level 3's! There is NO WAY he will be able to keep up with the rest ( 4 more will be going to the same school all level 4A/5's) I have told his parents he will struggle and will be very surprised if he lasts.

MollieO · 08/05/2011 11:18

Most people I know get tutors for yr 5. Imo if your dc needs tutoring from yr 4 they will probably struggle at grammar school. I would like Ds to go to grammar but won't consider it unless he is in the top third of his class.

stream · 08/05/2011 11:27

I agree with EvilTwins.

A friend of a friend has a child who was coached extensively by the parents, tutored, still failed the 11+ and got into a grammar by appeal.

The child is struggling and the parents 'can't understand it'.

Bunbaker · 08/05/2011 11:33

"I refuse to play this game, despite having an exceptionally bright child. I am slowly introducing DS (Year 5) to the format of the test, just so that he knows what to do when faced by it. That is all he will do"

That is what we did with DD. I took the view that I didn't want her to go to a school where she would always struggle with the work. We just looked at some papers over a period of a few weeks so that she could get used to the exam technique, but didn't really do any tutoring. She passed the exam easily and was offered a place.

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