Target to get into grammar - would you go private from 7 or stick with mediocre (at best) state and tutor?

[carolemiddleclasston]

Ds is at a very underwhelming primary where the education is disappointing, although he is very happy (other than the occasional grips about the sums being too easy etc etc). We think we'd like him to go to the local grammar at 11 but it is uber-competitive to get into. There are usually 12 applicants for every place and it is the first choice school for many of them even if they apply to other schools to.

He is a bright boy, as much as I can tell at the moment. His current school doesn't teach him much that's new in numeracy and literacy (plenty of good topic stuff though).

If we leave him where he is and tutor (a lot presumably given school is so mediocre) will that be enough? And will it mean he has to spend most afternoons after school doing extra work?

Or should we move him to a very good prep which prepares for the 11+, and will cater for him more in primary/ set good foundations (it's not a hothouse but is a step up from where he is now in terms of pace) but is further away and means he will have to move school twice - at 7 and 11?

Polly - yes there is one but we're not the right religion to stand a chance of ever getting a place

Shocker - really hate faith schools. However, some of them (and I know not all of them) are notoriously flexible when it comes to very clever well-supported children getting in... give them a ring, explain your situation and find out if there are any mid-year places and how they are allocated.

I wouldn't want him to go there even if there was a place, as he'd be the only non-Catholic to be honest and feel left out when they all do confirmation or whatever. It's a shame as it seems like a much better run school

I don't think they start tutoring for grammar entrance till about the year before, ie age 10 or 10+ (from what a friend told me) but you could always start another thread to ask. Certainly, definitely not age 7. I know some parents even get tutoring at good prep schools (!!) to enter competitive public schools (ie independent) schools, so you're certainly not the only one in that boat. Getting into a sought after school isn't about intelligence - lots of clever pupils do badly at exams or entrance exams. It's about answering test questions using the right techniques. If the tutor is good, for that age group, they do not make the preparation or homework a burden, but they give the child the confidence and the skills to complete exam questions with the most efficient technique.

Ooh tricky one.

On the one hand, I would compromise pretty much anything for a good (as defined by me) education for my children.
I volunteer in a poor performing primary and it is awful. Even the brightest children underachieve. I would have suffered any number of stuffy car journeys to avoid it.

However, I was very lucky and our local fabulous prep was actually round the corner...best of all possible worlds.

That said, there are children who commute twenty or thirty mins to the school and they seem perfectly happy. DS's friend was moved from his local state school and now has a much longer day and journey but boy is he thriving. The change in him is marked.

I'm also mindful of children in other less fortuante countries who walk miles to school. To consider children making shorter trips in the comfort of a car as somehow damaged seems a tad preposterous.

I think you do need to consider though, that even attending a great prep doesn't bring any guarantees vis a vis selective state school entrance. The competition is absurdly fierce.
If you chose to send your DS there it would need to be for the great education in and of itself, not simply a ticket to GS.

Apologies for not reading all this thread but I totally agree with giddypickle's post at start of this thread. What is your plan B? I also think that if home ed is an option, it's well worth considering (am not a home edder personally so defer to experts on mumsnet on that). FWIW, I know of a child who was considered brilliant. She got a scholarship to a highly selective academic school at 11. Didn't get into the grammar. It's a numbers game.

Plan B private secondary I suppose. Not as keen on them as the grammar from what I know at the moment (haven't looked very closely as ds is still young).

Wordfactory I think you are right - if we move him it should not just be a means to an end but because the schooling he gets would be better.

Or maybe I should try and help improve the situation for ds in our existing school somehow? But I'm cynical...

On the website best-schools.co.uk, there is an article called: "The Value of a Private Prep school education'. It may be of use to you.

Don't assume the worst of a state school - any school, from the perspective of your dc, is only as good as that year's class teacher.

My dd1 had a terrible pair of teachers in reception and year 1 - she learned nothing and was miserable; we considered pulling her out. Then in year 2, she had THE MOST FANTASTIC teacher and made huge progress and has thrived ever since, with ok teachers. And that experience (down to the individual teachers) can happen in any school. So a bad experience now may not mean it's a bad school, or that your child will not benefit in the long run.

In spite of 2 years of effectively learning nothing at school my dd recently got into grammar school - no tutoring except what I did with her (ony for 6 months prior to the exam). It can be done - you don't need to pay huge prices for 'the' tutor - from a perfectly average school, provided your dc is both bright and motivated.

Home background counts for a lot. We read, play word games, have no games machines not because we're trying to create some exam master class uber children, but because we all enjoy reading and spending quality time together as a family. I suspect that has as much to do with my dc's success as any deliberate 'tutoring' we do.

I'd go private as soon as you can although I have to confess that my experience is based solely on looking at state primaries (Ofsted Outstanding rated) compared with the local independent prep school (ISC Outstanding rated) for my 3 year old. There was a significant difference between the level of work being undertaken at the independent school compared with the state primaries. However, I wouldn't say this is necessary the case for all prep schools - some didn't compare as well as the state schools.

Reviving this thread as I could have written OP's post and have changed my mind several times about the best thing to do. In the end, I decided to keep DS in his mediocre state primary, where the children are all at Nat Curriculum average grade, and they do almost no academic work (I'm gleefully informed this almost every day by my Yr 4 son: we didn't do any work again to day mum!) It seems a no-brainer - move him out, but I'm not sure it is. We've decided to stay put and tutor.

A friend has a daughter at the other local state primary which is very academic. To the exclusion of all else. His daughter is very musical. The school isn't. There's very little attention paid to art, design, other cultures and religions, drama, etc. Local tutors complain when the children from our school first come to them, as our school's pupils are way behind. But they catch up quick enough and as many children from our school make it into the super-selective grammars and indies locally as do from the more structured school. The difference is that the children from our school are more well rounded. They are vibrant and inquisitive and enthusiastic.

It's true that it's far harder for them to knuckle down to concentrated study and routine homework (We only get some if the teachers remember.) But they do manage it in the end, and at least they had a very carefree childhood. I remember the Head turfing them all out of school one morning because of heavy snow, and letting them build huge snowmen on the field. They'll always remember that. And at some basic level they probably learned some team building and engineering skills along the way... Formal learning isn't the only thing to judge a school by. You have to make sure it happens one way or another if you're after a super-selective, but tutoring once a week and daily one-to-one study sheets will fill that gap.

I'm in a similar position. Depressingly bad state primary, no places anywhere else locally, and all privates are 30-60 minutes away and most have no outside space. So far my child is fairly happy at the school but he has learnt very little - and socially, is simply learning how to fit in by being rude and fighting. And our school isn't even one that stresses play and fun; it's a seemingly constant grind of dull literacy and numeracy. I'm completely stuck what to do and I worry that any joy of learning is just going to be worn away.

Menagerie your school sounds like ours. There is always something going on which is great but means they don't do much three Rs work. Loads of visits, outings, workshops, going to church etc. etc. I swear they must do a lot less than other schools...very reassured to hear about the tutors' views and how the kids from yours catch up. Doesn't it mean they have to do a lot more hard work in the run up to the 11+ though than at a more academic school?

Dragon mother - yes they do. We're going for grammars all super selective and the level we have to catch up with is daunting. I feel sick just thinking about it. But I also trust that we will catch up. My DC are bright and love learning. They have zero self-discipline and a short attention span but so far have not kicked up much of a fuss when made to do extra homework, and always really enjoy it when they settle down to it. I am worried we're starting very late, but, will give it a go...

Trifling - I'd move house. Seriously. You get one shot at their education. That sounds doubly grim. At least our kids love school and learn lots even if they can't spell or add up

What age are they? When is too late

repeats dragonmother's post

Dragon - year 4. So we have just over a year until the first 11+ exams, and 18 months until the one that really matters, in Jan 2013.