Target to get into grammar - would you go private from 7 or stick with mediocre (at best) state and tutor?

[carolemiddleclasston]

Ds is at a very underwhelming primary where the education is disappointing, although he is very happy (other than the occasional grips about the sums being too easy etc etc). We think we'd like him to go to the local grammar at 11 but it is uber-competitive to get into. There are usually 12 applicants for every place and it is the first choice school for many of them even if they apply to other schools to.

He is a bright boy, as much as I can tell at the moment. His current school doesn't teach him much that's new in numeracy and literacy (plenty of good topic stuff though).

If we leave him where he is and tutor (a lot presumably given school is so mediocre) will that be enough? And will it mean he has to spend most afternoons after school doing extra work?

Or should we move him to a very good prep which prepares for the 11+, and will cater for him more in primary/ set good foundations (it's not a hothouse but is a step up from where he is now in terms of pace) but is further away and means he will have to move school twice - at 7 and 11?

What a sad world we live in. I am having more and more sympathy for my db, who left London for another country altogether to get away from the neurotic rat race exemplified by middle class English attitudes to education. Do children ever get anywhere on their own merits these days, or are they entirely a piece of their parents' work? And do you really want your child in a school apparently entirely populated by the overworked children of neurotic and excessively competitive parents? What on earth is in these entrance exams that a reasonable all-round education, natural ability and a couple of test papers won't prepare you for?

If your DS is very happy at that school and has made good friends then my vote would be for tutoring. I really don't find primary school academics a major part of a child's learning - ie what I mean is that a lot of people I know basically found primary school very unchallenging academically and it was mainly social, sporting and craft (eg messy painting and artwork) activities they went to school for. They were writing essays and reading up science facts at home that were far more advanced, although they enjoyed classes ( just breezed through them). Then the next task is to be able to get a good tutor!

You could always ask the tutor how much homework that would involve - I suspect as your DS is bright it won't be much at all! And he's probably see it as being a fun challenge. Some prep schools can also give a lot of homework.

If he is very bored and unhappy with school, then I would go for a good prep, but it sounds like from what you are saying that he is enjoying it.

If finances are not a problem, you can always have a good private school as backup if he can't get into grammar school. I think the main thing here is that he is developing to the best of his abilities and not to do with the rat race as rabbitstew is concerned about.

This is a tricky question. I asked a question recently about views on extra tutoring at home and most people seemed against it, yet here there are lots of people who suggest tutoring may be ok.

Our school is average, to low average on its academic tuition, they focus more on the kids having fun and create an all round happy social person who will magically be able to cope with the pressure when they go to high school. They dont teach children at levels higher than what their class average should be. The kids dont have a clue about how clever they are or not and dont get stretched or pushed to show they could achieve more with additional support. So I home tutor as a top up, so that they are at least getting exposure to lots of different topics that are not being taught at school. (it is not high pressure at all)

I have thought about changing schools, but the school is a happy place and all the kids really enjoy themselves. They are still young children and need to have a childhood and shouldnt feel pressurised now because this will affect how they are in the future. We all want the best for our kids, we want them to succeed in life and have a great start in life. Realistically many people do extremely well even if they didnt go to a private school.

You have to decide what is best for your child and your child only.

I'm with sott - having moved DS2 to a state primary from a private school (where they did not support the 11+ as they had a secondary school), I can confirm that having local friends and a happy school day are worth a huge amount.

We moved him because his older brother and sister were both starting at the local grammars and transport to three schools would have ben a nightmare - so more for our convenience really - he could otherwise have stayed there until Y6.

We've just engaged a tutor, (at DS's request), although we got DD into grammar school by our own efforts. I'm not putting this very well as it's late, but I can tell you that moving a 7yo's school for no other reason than your own mild unease at their standard of education is hard to square with your instinct to do the best for your child's happiness.

I used to make a half hour journey to school, which worked out at 2 hours' travelling for me, plus the DCs were always tired. Their friends all lived 30 mins + away, which meant, after spending 10 hours a week driving, I thought twice about taking them to parties/arranging playdates.

Much better to have them in your local vicinity, at a school they feel happy and settled at, and use your pennies for exam tuition if you feel the need.

Take it from me, pulling your child out of school where they're happy, and have good friends does not make you feel good about yourself.

Agree with everything Giddypickle has said.
If you can afford to go private at secondary or you are happy for your children to go to your local state secondary(as most people are as anyway most people haven't got the choice of grammars)then there is no need for the intensive 11+ preparation.
However, if you want your child to go to a super-selective grammar(and I am only speaking of London)there has to be commitment from both the parent and child.
rabbitstew, you said "Do children ever get anywhere on their own merits these days, or are they entirely a piece of their parents' work?"
Believe me, if a child got into a school like Tiffin/QE boys, it would be because of their own merit.
The child would have to put in alot of hard work, the parents role would be in a supportive nature. A bright, lazy child might not do as well as a slightly less bright, hardworking child. It's not just about being bright, often hardworking people do better in life than bright ones.
carolemiddletonclasston-Does you son want to go to a grammar? He is probably too young to ask right now. Maybe you could ask when he is in year 4, as I think he will need the motivation and desire to do well, as he will have to put in extra time in preparation.
If he does not get into a grammar, will you consider private secondary? If that is an option for you then I think there will be less pressure for you and him, as the grammar school is not the be all and end all.

The problem is the local comps are dragged down by the presence of the grammars and prevalence of private locally, so I fear a clever, 'middle class' (sorry) child would get eaten alive and marked out as a geek which would not make for a happy time.

I am however heading towards the idea of staying put at the primary, tutoring (even though I'd rather not) and focusing on the fact that he is bright so would surely get into a decent private school even if he doesn't get into the grammar.

If we get to the point where he gets persistently bored in class though I guess we could move after 7+ anyway as surely places come up at year 3/4/5 occasionally?

If you can get a GOOD tutor then I'd consider at least trying that out. I find that you can get through so much more content and in so much greater depth in a tutoring session than you can with one class of kids - because you're not having to differentiate, you're only having to adapt lines of explanation to fit one child and not 20-30 and you can really hammer home on what's causing a misconception. I always feel that I work an individual child's brain harder during an hour tutoring slot than an hour whole class lesson - because we can focus in on every single aspect of the work, can you improve that, tell me what the next step you're going to need to do is... I guess they don't get a second to slack off!

Of course if you're in a grammar school area you're going to have to do some digging to snap up one of the good 11+ tutors pretty sharpish from what I hear!

When do people start tutoring for 11+ and booking the good tutors (please say not for a few years yet?)

hmmmmm....well, I USED to agree with the "don't move them if they're happy" idea. And I, for one, would not move a child who is doing well and happy.

However, I am moving my own DSs in September from state to private. DS1 because he is very much behind in literacy, and just isn't catching up (y3 now, but he sits with the Y1-2s). And literacy is just TOO important.

He needs a smaller class and more help. We are filling lots of gaps at home (he's in a class of 36) and have a tutor now, but it's not ideal.

DS2 on the other hand is ahead (or used to be), but has moved from doing extremely well in Y1, to doing "ok" in y2 as there are 3 children with "behavioural problems" and the teacher doesn't get round to teaching but has to settle for class control.

It is a shame, as they are happy there. But I WILL move them, as there is no reason they would not be happy as well in another school.

It all depends on the school, and on your child.

I feel very sad about moving mine, but I will do it. The schools I am looking at are small friendly non-selective private schools (who still get 98% of their y6 kids into their chosen secondory (mix of grammar, state and private). So not a hothouse.

Hard to uproot them though, but they will still see their "old" friends at football and Beavers.

Can't you just go private for secondary?? If his present school is mediocre why haven't you moved/paid for another school

I think 7 is too young to tell if your child has grammar school potential. If your child is happy where he is, keep him there till the end of year 4 and then reassess. That should leave plenty of time to get him up to speed for the 11plus.

Thing is the boy in question isn't 7, he's y1 so 6 at most. At this point there are so many variables as to school performance - where they went to pre school, home life, if they're old for their year etc. All these can make a child seem advanced and then all even out or change. I doubt anybody could work out who's a qeb boy at this point. Why not let him enjoy being so close to home and save your money and efforts nearer the time or as private school back up?

Cocyx because the private school means a crappy journey. If it were closer I would just do it. It's a lifestyle issue for us all - he will be in the car nearly an hour a day, me nearly two hours a day.

Chandon - we have a bit of the situation with your yr2 child. Crowd control and over-stretched teacher who doesn't seem to have time to teach ds at his level.

Polly - my personal jury is still out on ds as he would need to be an all-round top performer. He does have some freaky stuff (and I'm not exaggerating) he does but then other areas such as writing are very average. He's a June birthday and went to a play based nursery with no formal teaching (thankfully!). But he might just be an early developer. Time will tell!

I completely mistakenly assumed he was an autumn born boy! Ive a friend who was convinced our state school wasn't pushing her reception sept born pushy preprep educated girl. In the first term! She was convinced of her genius. You sound much more laid back and sensible.
I really value being so close to school and agree that it would be awful to spend so much time in car. I do think supportive parents and then a bit of tutoring later can be really effective.

That's a fair assumption Polly. Ds is considerably ahead of the Autumn borns in some areas so that's I suppose what makes me think he should be able to at least have a go at grammar IF he is taught well.

OK it seems like the decision shouldn't be based on what will give him the best chance of getting into the grammar, but on his happiness which could still mean a move if this starts to go downhill due to the standard they're working at in class.

I think you have two things here, firstly your desire to try and get him into a grammar and the issue of his current school. By the sounds of it you will have to do a lot of work to get his standards to get him into a grammar school, that said only you know if this is possible i.e leaving him at his current school and tutoring. The second issue is the fact that the school isn't giving him the education you want. For this reason alone, if you can, I would move him. The question is where to? I would only move him to the private school if you believe that it is going to deliver what you want, you don't want to find yourself paying fees and realising that it isn't much better than where you were. Do you believe he is bright enough to get a scholarship to secondary? If so this may be your better option, obviously we don't know about your financial situation, however scholarships can be worth a good discount so are worth a look. If he is bright the odds are that he will be more likely to achieve this than the grammar. Good luck.

do you really think that 40 mins a day extra work after school can make up the difference of being really well taught all day at school? I made the swap at the age you're talking about, and not as a "strategy" for a grammar school entrance as we don't have any round here, but because DS1 was at an underwhelming primary school. I really cannot believe the change in the child - I'd have said he was happy before I moved him, although stagnating academically, but he's a whole new child now (well actually he's back to being the child he was before he went to school). If you've got the money, do it!

Even with the considerably longer journey Gabucci?

Gabucci, i'd like to hear more about that.

Am going to move my DC but worried DS1 may struggle to catch up and lose heart (worst case scenario) and feel to be not good enough.....OR (best case scenario) catches up with the blimming literacy and maybe even starts to shine at something he is good at (may it be sport, drama or academic, just something...)

Sorry going back to OP but don't forget that the biggest single factor in school is the quality of the teacher (ie far more than small class size etc). Have you got an underwhelming y1 teacher? What are the ones in y2,3,4 etc like?
There is so much evidence about the damage that commuting does that I really think you are right not to discount it as a factor. I would imagine that all the damage it does to adults is amplified in children because they have such a different concept of time.
I hated my school journey. Spent the whole time working out what percentage of my life was going to have been spent on that bloody bus. Was good at maths but not v happy.

Therein lies the problem. If the private school was 10 minutes away we would jump ship. If the existing school had better teachers, we'd stay.Sadly neither seems to be true.
We have a duff year 1 teacher (she means well though!) and might get a better one next year but there are others said to be disappointing on the school grapevine. The head is pretty weak so this doesn't surprise me.

No other nearby state school with good rep?

Hi Chandon

Moving DS was the most difficult decision I've ever made, I was really worried about whether it was the right thing to do - moving him from his friends, but I was also really worried about the distinct lack of teaching! When I moved him he was undoubtedly considerably behind the children in the new school, and he didn't find that disheartening, he just lapped up the new environment. He cried every day of his first week, and when I said "I'm sorry, are you missing your friends?" He replied - "no, I'm just so relieved"! And I'd thought he was happy! In addition to him catching up academically, he's also started to find things he's good at because of all the other things on offer. It really has been a good decision. Have to say though in response to Polly, it's not a bad commute, only adds half an hour to the whole day, so I can't really comment on the impact of travelling. Having said that, I considered extra help outside school rather than move schools, but this way I feel as though the work is done during the day, and when school is over, he can have a break which is important!