Is there a lack of primary school places in your area?

[Rosenotinyorkshire]

Just out of curiousity really. I live in an area of Surrey which has proved to be appalling this year for primary schools being (very) over subscribed. I was lucky to get my DC into our first choice on the sibling rule but many friends have missed out on 1st, 2nd and 3rd choices and are finding themselves low down on waiting lists at preferred schools. How has it been for others in different parts of the country?

I'm working with Constable Educational Trust and we're using the free school legislation to try and set up a new state-funded primary school in London to address the places shortage.

We're looking at 5 boroughs and will focus our proposal where there is most parental demand. The boroughs are Tower Hamlets, Camden, Haringey, Hackney, Kensington and Chelsea. It will be a mainstream school but the founders of CET will use their experience of having set up and run a school for children with dyslexia (The Moat School, Fulham) to make sure that any challenges children may have are spotted early and proper provision is made.

If you're concerned about a place for your child in September 2012 and live in one of those boroughs you can show your demand by signing up at our website - www.cetrust.net

Thanks for reading

Samdcross infants site is earmarked for a housing development ie make some developers yet more money by bringing families with young children into the area but not investment in any extra (desperately needed) school places.

The trouble with some free shcools being rushed through in some areas is that they can have big idealogical issues.

One primary proposal near me is for a much needed primary school but its being put forward by evangelical christians -how is this going to serve the whole (very mixed ) community?

Thanks Banjo12!

MrsDon, I'm interested that it's viewed that there's more parental demand for primary school places in the boroughs you mention, where there wasn't a shortfall this year, than in boroughs like Kingston, Barnet and Richmond on Thames where there most definitely is.

Someone in Berkshire told me that in their area fallout from the recession meant kids that might have gone to public schools are being put in state schools. Anyone else heard this?

Where we are demand is fairly constant and no issues, but we used to live near Hampton in SWLondon and really grateful we are not still there.

I've heard that about private schools and it makes sense, but haven't seen any stats. The birth rate's been on the rise for a few years now. The property boom saw lots of 'starter homes' being bought by couples who moved in, had a baby (or two) who are now school age; more in some areas that others. The hysteria that surrounds League Tables and Ofted reports, whilst not contributing to the lack of places overall, is certainly a big factor in 'crisis areas' like parts of Surrey and some areas in London.

yes, the year my eldest was applying, at start of recession, the private schools had lots of spaces cos everybody sent their child to state school. That resulted in my child (state-school intended) not getting decent place, so in the end we went private. Swings and roundabouts. think it evened itself out in the end. southofthethames, I rang younger son's school to pull him out this morning, turns out they have a waiting list already so no place up for grabs there.

Hi Rosebud05 - the boroughs mentioned are those we are targeting due to existing and projected shortfalls, and because we don't have the resources to get out and talk to parents in every borough where there are these challenges. However, we will propose to site the school wherever in London there is most demand from parents with children due to start primary school in September 2012. If you would like us to look at other London boroughs please email [email protected]

Thank you Banjo12, I got your PM thanks - you're v kind. I think what might be happening in our part of the county is that because there is now a squeeze on state school places (due to the rise in people moving in), private is now also full because people are paying to have the choice even if they feel they could just about afford it. Guess I should've been a bit more obsessive and done both like some parents. 450 - 550 quid a worthwhile price for the stress and time wasted?

Hi, This will be of interest to SouthoftheThames! I have just been reading the local paper which has an article featuring parents who were offered (and accepted) places at one of our local primaries only to have the places withdrawn, as Surrey have made an error in calculating which was their nearest primary school. How heartbreakingfor the families concerned

Thank you Rosenotinyorkshire, have looked up Surrey Mirror's website - I am appalled! It doesn't affect us as the primary school in question (Wray Common) wasn't one of our choices. However, I do think the council are wrong to be taking the places back - there are 13 pupils/families affected, and I am wondering if anyone knows whether this is unprecedented: a council removing a place from a child that they have offered and that the family have already accepted. I don't think this can be ethically acceptable surely - what if the parents have bought the uniforms....will the council give them a refund?!! I mean, if they can do this after the families have accepted the places and the council have acknowledged the acceptances, where will it stop?

Will councils now have the power to take away school places on Aug 31 and tell parents they have to go somewhere else?

I thought we had been told that even if another 13 families had successfully appealed on distance, they could not displace pupils who had already been given places.

There is another serious point to all this that makes me think Surrey Council are allocating school places with their eyes closed - the council say that the families' nearest school is really St Matthews and not Wray Common. This is kind of true - I checked on the council's "school finder according to distance" page on their website - they are also nearer a Catholic school. However, St M is a C of E school with the same criteria for most C of E schools - priority for children in care, followed by priority for Anglican children going to their church, followed by children from other churches, followed by siblings, followed by medical/disability, lastly distance (so the nearest school category is number 6)......meaning that the council are suggesting that these 13 pupils, even if they aren't churchgoers nor siblings, should still apply to this C of E school and probably not get in.

It really is ludicrous and I hope the families appeal. Would be interested to see what our experienced MNers on this subject think, it certainly is a mad situation.

I know South, I just cant believe the LA have got away with this. Like you, I was under the impression that offers could not be withdrawn. There was a situation with my DC's school 2 years ago where 4 or 5 extra children were admitted under appeal. The school had to go over its PAN and employ an extra teacher for that year group in the end. Im sure more experienced mumsnetters may be able to explain or offer their thoughts.
It is just sheer bloody incompetence and heads should roll at the LA but probably wont.

I know some of the 13 families affected. They are just gobsmacked. They will surely win on appeal? Although Surrey county council sneaking sent them the letter the DAY BEFORE the appeals deadline. Afaik they have managed to get appeal submissions in. I think they knew that they were closer to st Matthews but hoped for wray common. They had already sent their acceptance letters when they were told. Problem is that their wrongly allocated places (based on them being category 5 "child's nearest school" when they should have been category 6 " any other based on distance from school" will have meant that 13 children who were closer did not get in and they have obviously pointed it out. None of this is the parents fault though. I feel sure there is frantic arse covering going on at SCC now and they will surely have to put on a 4th class as wray common?!?! It was done the year my child didn't get any of our 3 choices and again since I think so they Wong be able to say the school can't take it.

Honestly, when we went through this all with Surrey county council LEA in their ivory tower in Kingston and guildford I was just astounded at how gob-smackingly disorganised, unprofessional and, tbh, criminally negligent they were (won't bore you with the details but they couldn't even get my child's name right in correspondence and sent us letters about other peoples children). I can't believe it has got worse! When will something be done? This has been going on for at least 7 years now.

befuzzled just at your experiences but sadly not surprised. As you ask when will something be done? The Surrey admissions team appear to be arrogantly complacent and thoroughly incompetent. Year in and year out there are too many horror stories at both primary and secondary level and alas I cant see the situation improving. I hope the local paper keeps with this issue and that the poor families all win their appeals.

The problem is there is no accountability and nothing to force them to shape up. They just trot out the old no money for new school places lines, true, I am sure, but why aren't they lobbying central government to get more funding. In fairness I suppose, sandcross has received extra funding but obviously not great if you are the other side of town like the wray common people.

They are the most unsympathetic, uncaring arseholes i have to say ( not local people in Reigate council building who were lovely ). I got called a "middle class snob" for wanting to have some choice of which school my child went to and their only advice was well you'll have to send them private, which we did, in many ways, just to get out of the hideous, postcode lottery, morally bankrupt system that is SCC school admissions. Sadly we will probably be going all over again for juniors. Its really quite cruddy and has long lasting effect on people's lives which they don't appreciate or give a damn about.

Oh well, rant over, good luck everyone. Apologies for spelling, am on phone.

befuzzled - my goodness, I do feel for your friends. I do think there is a case for making a complaint - what about the Schools Ombudsman? I am sure they are breaking some rule by confiscating a school place they gave out and received an acceptance of. The only ethical (and I reckon lawful!) solution must be to open up a another class and start discussions with the school about how they could go about doing this. I hope all 13 are appealing. This is just so unacceptable. If I were on the Wray Common waiting list (which I'm not) I would feel the same way.

I really do not see how they can imagine that just because a faith school is their nearest school that they feel that the family should apply to it and not get in. If the family were eligible (as attendees of that church) they would have applied already, or they may have strong reasons for not wanting that school. If you look at St Matthew's website, the Christian ethos is quite strong (fair enough, most faith schools do) and I don't think it is right to make a child from a family of another faith or no faith go to it if they are not keen on a Christian school.

(Shall we start a new thread and see what others think about this issue of the council confiscating places?? If it doesn't frighten other parents to bits!)

We have the same problem in our town also in Surrey. Some schools are church aided and fill their own places based on parish boundaries or church attendance. Others are filled by the county council on the basis of how close you live to the school. It means in certain areas of town you can not get into your nearest school if you don't live in the parish and go to the church and are considered at the bottom of the list for the nearest non church aided school as it is not your nearest school.

Either the church schools need to prioritise those for whom the school is the nearest irrespective of parish boundaries or the non church aided schools need to take people for whom the school is the nearest non church aided school. Otherwise there are going to be sections of towns where you can not get into any school within walking distance and have to travel miles to the other side of town to the nearest school with places.

GiddyPickle, I'm glad you saw this and posted. I know they look in their rules and pick out things like "at the discretion of" or use terms like "may not" or "ought not" liberally where it suits them but I think in this instance where the places were given out on April 11 and then more than a fortnight later they contact the families to withdraw the places, the council/LEA are just acting very unethically. I mean, the parents have probably visited the school, started getting shoes or uniform, etc (not unlikely if you are well organised and want to be beat the August/Sept rush.)

This is the article: www.thisissurreytoday.co.uk/news/Families-distraught-schools-fiasco/article-3519792-detail/article.html

The other thing is I don't see how they can say Wray Common is not the nearest school. The only 2 schools nearer (the families' roads are in the article) a C of E school and a Catholic school - both of which you stipulate you have be attending the associated church, and fill in the school's own application form. "Nearest distance" allocations are category 6 or further behind for priority. It is not reasonable or logical for the council to say that parents should apply to a school where they get bottom priority - for both schools, distance alone is about the same as "all others" because attendance of the affiliated church is top priority.

I've only skimmed through the thread, so forgive me if I've overlooked anything.

1. On withdrawing school places: Para 1.50 of the Admissions Code does give the LEA power to withdraw the offer of a place where the LEA has made that offer in error on behalf of a school for which it isn't the admissions authority. So, the LEA has to honour its mistakes on behalf of its own schools, but VA schools aren't bound by mistakes which the LEA makes on their behalf:

1.50 Once an offer of a school place has been made it is only reasonable for an admission authority to withdraw that offer in very limited circumstances. These may include when a parent has failed to respond to an offer within a reasonable time or the admission authority offered the place on the basis of a fraudulent or intentionally misleading application from a parent (for example, a false claim to residence in a catchment area) which effectively denied a place to another child; or where a place was offered under co-ordination by the local authority, not the admission authority, in error. If a parent has not responded to the offer of a place within a reasonable time, the admission authority must remind the parent of the need to respond within a further seven days and point out that the place may be withdrawn if they do not.

I'm assuming that the school in question isn't VA.

Even where there are grounds for withdrawing a place, there is (if my memory serves me correctly) case law to say that any such withdrawal of an offer must be done very quickly. That is the other point to be contested here - the families can argue that they have held the offers for so long that they are entitled to rely on them and the LEA, by its own delay, has forfeited any right it had to withdraw them.

2. On appeals deadlines: These are deadlines which the LEA sets for its own administrative ease, but appeals can be submitted at any time.

No, primary schools are ok. Not enough grammar school places locally though. Not looking forward to that stage.