new maths methods are driving me mad..anyone else?

[wheelsonthebus]

dc are not at all bad at maths, but the new methods are slowing down their entire learning IM0. Goodness knows what will happen when we get to 'chunking' (dh went to a maths workshop at the school and even the teacher demonstrating it said to parents - 'er this is where it all goes wrong' - as she was doing it ). Whoever thought up these new methods is bonkers. For example, a simple sum like 58 + 29. By far and away, the easiest method is adding vertically like this.
58
29+
-
This is how the sum still appears in many traditional 7+ papers
But no, we are now told:
58 + 29 = difficult
58 + 30 - 1 or 58 + 2 + 27 = easier
It's rubbish!

The new theory being - changing a number to a round number or one which creates a round number when added to or subtracted from the other (e.g. 29 to 30 or 28) and then compensating makes the calculation much easier. For instance (33 + 99) is much easier when thought of as (33 + 100 -1).

I'm sorry - but it is NOT easier and millions of children will be worse off for it...

I disagree.

I think the columns method is just one tool that it is useful for some circumstances (more complicated sums, when a pencil and paper is easier).

However, I think learning alternative methods, while perhaps slower for some children at first, gives a better understanding of how numbers work. Some children never get this if they are only taught the traditional alogorithms. They can also be quicker for some people doing mental maths. Everyone has to find their own way for that. For example, when DH does sums in his head, he naturally uses a chunking type method. I don't, I kind of do columns, but work from left to right.

My daughter has been taught both by Yr 4 - though columns did come later than I expected.

I think wheelsonthebus makes a very revealing remark when she says 'when it matters(i.e., in exams). That really isn't the only time numeracy matters!

What is the bus stop method for division? I am a teacher and I have taught the chunking method for division....

There's nothing wrong with it as an approach. I'm confused as to why both aren't taught together though. I thought this approach was taught for mental arithmetic and the column method for written calculations. The 'new maths' method is how I've always done mental arithmetic.

What happens when you get to 536 x 474?

I'll stick with private.

Chunking sounds perfectly sensible to me. Surely that's what most people do in their heads anyway?

Children learn in different ways and eventually by the end of ks2 will use all the "traditional" methods. Honestly, there is some value in learning different methods, if they are explained properly. I now occasionally add numbers in this way myself.

Yes, bus shelter division is the way we all learnt at school. Chunking helps some children, particularly if well explained.

As for times tables, I'm with you there. They need to be learnt.

I think some posters are confusing chunking with partitioning.
Partitioning is where you group together the tens and units. e.g. 25+46=
20+40=60
5+6=11
60+11=71

This also helps kids to realise what each digit is worth. With the column method when they add up the tens column they might say 4+5=9 whereas it is actually 40+50= 90. The fact that they get the answer more quickly with the column method might mean they don't have a secure understanding of place value.

This does help to improve mental methods eventually where as column addition is quite hard to do in your head although quicker if you have a pencil and paper.

Chunking is a totally mad way of doing division (this from a teacher) It involves addition, subtraction, division and multiplication all in the same sum. Kids get SOOOOOOOO muddled and need a whole page for the completion of one sum.

I remember showing a group of children the bus stop method (which is the old fashioned way of doing short division like we did at school in the 70's) after they struggled for ages with chunking.

"Why didn't you show us this first?" they asked indignantly like I was some sort of sadist who liked torturing children.

I am a very experienced primary school teacher and I ha ve never met a single colleague who thinks the chunking method is any good.

I think the new method is confusing when it's written down for a child. I think the traditional method is more clear cut on paper. However, when I'm mentally doing sums I automatically round up numbers in my head and then subtract them so I can see it from both angles.

42

3)126

LNP - grid method. Children then have a better idea of 100s, 10s and units. I'm very traditional in my view of education - grammars all the way for my lot - but good primary maths teaching can give children confidence and a wide range of techniques. Of course, it's not all good.....

I've never heard of "chunking" but my DCs are still quite small. I was very good at maths in primary school and was given lots of old maths books to play with on a regular basis, after I'd finished my own extra work. I'm mid forties, and there were still plenty of pre-decimalisation/pre-metrification ones lurking around. I can still remember the delight I had playing with one book which talked about all sorts of short cuts and tricks to adding/subtracting/multiplication/division. Chunking sounds like one of those techniques I've been using for thirty+ years.

Like Mrs Daffodil I I can estimate all sorts of numbers really easily by working backwards or forwards from 5, 10 or 20. It's a really quick way of knowing whether a figure is right or not. My mental arithmetic is still pretty good and I find it fun.

If chunking is what I think it is, surely that's always been taught??? There are six sweets, if Ellie, Meera and Adam share them how many will they have each. It's also part of learning about fractions - divide this cake into four and colour in on quarter.

irregularregular - numeracy matters in many walks of life, but you've got to pass your school exams first. there's no point telling an employer 'I am actually very good at maths but failed my GCSE' (and begin to sound like a student at Jamie's Dream School...)

I sympathise with OP.

A couple of helpful links:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1qee-bTZI
Video: Maths Education -an inconvenient truth.

www.societyforqualityeducation.org/stairway2math/MATHSHEET06,_Easier_Subtraction.pdf
Easier way to subtract.

The Bus Stop Method is the old way, but why does it have to be given a new name?

What bothers me is that all these methods described as 'new maths' should have always been used, alongside the traditional ones, in every classroom. I was taught a version of them with the traditional methods, so I understood what the line equations meant. How can you teach division without really explaining what you're doing ie splitting into chunks?

It sounds like they've enforced this way of teaching it because some teachers weren't teaching maths very well.

I was taught all of that Squidgy12 and I'm 32.

My DS is only 5 & just started Heinneman maths 2 - I have never heard of chunking but it sounds like a good idea as that is the only way to do these sort of sums quickly & you have to understand numbers to do it in this way which is vital to understanding maths! I can't imagine ever using the carry it over method as an adult on these sort of sums and it really makes very little sense. The majority of calculations we do as adults in our everyday lives are mental arithmetic (where I chunk naturally) or are solved by calculator - why teach something that is never needed!
However my DS is at pre-prep & I have no idea what method he is being taught so will ask!

My dd1 is in Y6, and she struggles with chunking but is confident using the bus stop method, so she sticks with it. In Y6 Sats it is rare to have a long division sum given on the non-calculator paper, and the bus stop method works well for short division. This website explains chunking for anyone interested.

Yes, private schools also teach by the new methods, although those preparing for 8+ have to do the mechanical one too a couple of terms earlier than otherwise.
Yes, in exams you have a pencil and paper, wheelsonthebus, but life is not an exam (and I say that as someone is very intent on academic success and who has just gone through 8+). There are bigger issues involved.
If a child understands numbers, they can be taught mechanical methods v quickly. If a child doesn't really get and is just churning through the mechanics a la Kumon, they are likely to really struggle with fundamental maths understanding, not to mention paying for things in shops.

ds1's school is private, so yes it is in private schools too. i can see why 'chunking' works, and i can see the practical benefits of it, but for ds1 it has just been totally confusing being taught 3 different ways of doing things (ie the partitioning as well) and he ends up getting completely muddled as to what he's trying to achieve

I don't care about when they learn it I care about them learning it thoroughly and fully understanding what they're doing. Good teaching has always used several approaches and tailored the teaching to each child- some might struggle to get certain methods. I don't like any approach that says this is the only way, you will all be taught this way.

That is exactly what worries me MrsRavelstein. If the approach isn't flexible some children will just end up more confused.

My acquired two were past the early bit so I never saw it.

I have all this to look forward to?