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Superstitious crap-peddling in non-church school, how to deal with it?

537 replies

SpringchickenGoldBrass · 09/03/2011 15:44

DS (6, in Year 1) came home from school today talking about what he's going to give up for Lent. I asked him if he understood why he was supposed to be giving up things for Lent (of course he had no idea) and made sure he knew that he didn't have to and I would be doing no such thing, and we had a little talk about superstitions.
I am seriously pissed off with this and want to speak to the school about it. We live in a very multicultural area and I want to know A) if all the 6 year old Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Jews and whatever else are trotting home stuffed with this crap and if not, how can I get DS exempt from it? Just because we are English does not mean we are CofE, I am a hardline atheist and DS dad and I have been raising him with as little superstition as possible.
I do not think it's appropriate for a group of culturally-mixed 6 year olds to be fed this sort of bullshit (which is going to be beyond most of them anyway) - I have no problem with DC being taught about the various mythology brands but the actual practicing of this nonsense should not be suggested to them at school.

OP posts:
Himalaya · 15/03/2011 11:29

Bunbaker

"Religion is full of horrible views and opinions, Yes it is, and so is atheism."

er, no its not. athesism is not a club, an institution or a belief system, it is a single belief 'there is no god'. How can a simple statement be full of anything?

"It is people who are horrible not religion."

I think you are right to differentiate people who for whatever reason (accident of birth, cultural identity, comfort, enjoyment, fear etc..) identify themselves with a religion and religious institutions themselves, which in every country where they are given authority use it to defend and and grow their own power and undermine the human rights of citizens.

I think your conclusion is exactly arse about face.

Religion makes good people do bad things:

Supporting calls for the execution of authors who blaspheme. (Many, many muslims)
Cutting off a sensitive part of someone's genitals without their permission. (Most practicing jews)
Supporting legislation to prevent people getting divorced (Mother Teresa in Ireland)

I don't think these people are wicked. So the only way to explain their bizarre behavior is that religion makes good people do bad things.

gooseberrybushes · 15/03/2011 11:32

The point, yet again, because you have clearly missed it, is that you think:

"The people who make the biggest fuss (ie the most vocal) about wanting legal protection for their superstitions ie blasphemy laws (eg retention of the established church) are usually the ones who are up to no good (like abusing women and children or fiddling their taxes) and want to silence their critics."

You think the most vocal defenders of the faith are more likely to be
child abusers and tax dodgers. Nothing is being elided here.

And still you defend it.

gooseberrybushes · 15/03/2011 11:33

If you are changing your mind about what you are saying, you need to withdraw your earlier statement.

exoticfruits · 15/03/2011 11:41

I find it impossible to treat someone's views with respect if they express them with words like 'crap' and 'bullshit'. I tend to treat people as they treat me (not very Christian as in turn the other cheek!)
If SGB used modified her language, she would get more respect and people would be more inclined to listen but as it is she comes across as narrow minded and bigoted and with a degree of anger that isn't healthy.
In RL I would keep quiet and avoid her-the same way that I would with anyone with extreme views on anything. There is no point in engaging-and I shall leave well alone on this type of thread in the future. It is pointless.
I just don't think that DCs should be exposed to views expressed with hatred (on any side).

Himalaya · 15/03/2011 11:51

Gooseberrybushes - Of course SGB is trying push people's buttons. She is scornful and ridiculing of religious belief. I don't think she has been personally abusive to any one in particular on this thread.

If she said 'Justin Bieber sings crap, musically worthless rubbish' you could read that as impugning your personal musical taste if you were a fan and get offended. Whether your offense is reasonable depends on the context:

If she went into a Justin Bieber fan club and said it you would be right in calling her out for being rude and aggressive and spoiling for a fight, but if we were discussing what music should be included in the GCSE music syllabus then it would be a fair comment (although maybe not one that would convince any die-hard fans to take her views seriously).

The problem is that religions have put forward the view that the whole world is their Justin Bieber fan club, in which everyone should pay obsequious respect or remain respectfully silent.

I think she has been sloppy and inaccurate in her description of the corruption that happens whenever religions have power - because she has made it all about people and not about institutions.

It is not that the pope and many other Vatican leaders have covered up child abuse because they directly get off on it, but because they though that protecting the power, reputation and financial assets of the church was more important than protecting children.

gooseberrybushes · 15/03/2011 12:00

Sloppy and inaccurate? Are you criticising her child abuse claim? Are you saying one can't criticise her bigotry because she's "only trying to push people's buttons, what do you expect"?

That excuses bigotry? Accusations of child abuse against vocal defenders of faith?

Awwww.. that's just her way is it?

Cute. Your way too, if you condone it.

GrimmaTheNome · 15/03/2011 12:10

If SGB used modified her language, she would get more respect and people would be more inclined to listen

Yes. I'm afraid her robust language tends to derail the substance of a debate.

I just don't think that DCs should be exposed to views expressed with hatred (on any side).

er, anyones DCs reading MN? I have no reason to assume any of us has our little talks with our DCs in tones of hatred.

donnie · 15/03/2011 12:23

gooseberry: I posted quite early on in this thread and made a comment on the OP's abusive and rabid language. I agree with you but you won't get a retraction. she can't help it. She is bigoted and fundamentalist. She foams at the mouth and hurls abuse and spiteful rantings at anyone who entertains any religious feelings of any sort and , weirdly, cannot see that it is abuse and spite. But then I guess that is the rationale of any fundamentalist - they can't tolerate any point of view but their own.

I don't get riled up about it any more as she does this from time to time don't you SGB? (she likes the attention, I am guessing). I just feel a little sorry for her since clearly she is so dominated by hatred that her life must be rather sad.

gooseberrybushes · 15/03/2011 12:23

There was an interesting, measured and mutually respectful bit of to and fro in the middle there about faith schools.

All enthusiastic Muslims are not terrorists. All enthusiastic Catholics are not child abusers. All enthusiastic evangelicals are not cult leaders.

If you have to suggest these things to try to make your point, then you haven't got much of a point.

exoticfruits · 15/03/2011 12:26

I was just hoping SGB doesn't talk to her DCs in such tones-not that they read MN!

gooseberrybushes · 15/03/2011 12:28

You're right Donnie, and I have got riled up, but in many ways it's because there's been precious little condemnation of it. There's even been defence of it.

She's saying the words, but others are agreeing by default. If someone says something bigoted about black people, and one ignores it or defends it, what does that make you?

Anyway tis only the interweb. Maybe.

HouseOfBamboo · 15/03/2011 12:30

Agree with Himalaya.

And to extend the analogy, the reason that many parents do get so angry is that in many cases the members of the Justin Beiber fan club get first dibs on places at their local state school.

If you're not a Justin fan yourself, you either have to feign fandom or compromise your choices about your child's education. Which is a plainly unfair and bonkers system.

And I guess you could extend the analogy a bit further wrt Justin fandom being a legal requirement of your child's school day, but I'll stop there!

donnie · 15/03/2011 12:31

I agree gooseberry - it is flavour of the moment to mock religion.

gooseberrybushes · 15/03/2011 12:31

And there's another one Sad

gooseberrybushes · 15/03/2011 12:33

Why is it so hard to say: this is bigotry and I condemn it. Is it cos she's yer mate, like. Or because she has this loud, rough, scornful way about her and she might turn it on you. Who knows.

donnie · 15/03/2011 12:38

again, I agree completely with you gooseberry. A lot of people are very flaccid and cowardly when it comes to condemning bigotry, which of course the Ops language is. Not sure why.

"everyone is entitled to ridicule" - I disagree. I do not think people's deeply held religious beliefs and worship in God are entitled to be ridiculed.

gooseberrybushes · 15/03/2011 12:40

It's not just the general language she uses. People are trying to turn it into that, but it isn't. It's real ignorance and prejudice bigotry which informs that language.

HouseOfBamboo · 15/03/2011 12:43

Gooseberrybushes - I don't spend my days mocking religion. I'm just shocked about the way it's so intertwined with the state education system. It's something I had no idea about before I had a child.

Himalaya · 15/03/2011 12:45

Gooseberrybushes -

I've said I think SGB's argument that those defending religious privilidge are up to no good is wrong. It isn't wrong because of the language she used. And it isn't wrong because some people are offended.

It's wrong because it's inaccurate. Many people defend religious privilidge for many reasons. It doesn't mean they are all child abusers, wife beaters, etc... but it does mean they are advocating that we give a special kind of respect to institutions that condone these things or have systematically covered them up.

The reflex to take offense (and respond to offense by calling for censorship) is one of the ways that religion protects it's privileged place in society.

SpringchickenGoldBrass · 15/03/2011 12:45

Donnie: Oh yes they are. It doesn't matter how deeply held anyone's belief or opinion is, other people are not obliged to agree with it or take it seriously. People who love Justin Bieber/Twilight/communism/football are welcome to get on with it, but when they start insisting that (for instance) Twilight is great literature and wanting other people to be stopped from pointing out what a crock of shit it is, then they need a dose of reality ie that other people are completely entitled not to agree with them or even care about their treasured whateveritis, let alone be obliged to read/view/engage with it.
People who have deeply held beliefs in one or other myth system often insist that their imaginary friend is the only one, and everyone else's imaginary friends (despite being the equivalent in terms of number of believers and length of time the imaginary friends have been allegedly around) don't exist or are bad.

OP posts:
Himalaya · 15/03/2011 12:54

donnie -"everyone is entitled to ridicule" - I disagree. I do not think people's deeply held religious beliefs and worship in God are entitled to be ridiculed.

And that's the point right there.

Monty Python's Life of Brian, The Satanic Verses, Ricky Gervais's stand up should all be banned then?

gooseberrybushes · 15/03/2011 12:56

I'm afraid accusing vocal defenders of faith as more like to abuse children is not just "inaccurate".

If she's wrong, she's ignorant: and it's given rise to a prejudice, which is bigotry. It's not just inaccurate: it's bigotry, no more, no less.

AdelaofBlois · 15/03/2011 12:57

Dipped in to find this back at the usual 'is religion good or bad' stuff that my RE teacher used to use to fill up space in Yr9 when too hungover to actually think (at least until she was reprimanded for throwing up in the bin).

Wanted to respond to some earlier to-and-fro on selection though, where gooseberrybushes says

"Selection by faith is the only kind of selection. It's almost better than selection by income (as in independent edu) because it really does reflect effort, commitment, hard work etc etc, hopefully qualities likely to be passed on to the children"

This is what drives so many of us mad, and is wrapped up in the basic issue of whether religions belief should be that special. If you want a system that selects in this way so it groups committed parents then argue for a return to the days of parental meetings with the Head and waiting lists, or for the possibility of exclusion if parents don't live up to their end of the bargain. Or accept, as I would, that such a system is so cack-handedly unfair and immoral it isn't worth supporting.

But what you're arguing for is that one factor which may indicate involvement and ability to contribute, but by no means clearly, should remain. You want to select to 'keep standards up', but on grounds which are not designed to select for what you want. That's barmy-it's like popping out for a sandwich but then blindly grabbing anything in the Boot's fridge.

And the only reasons it stands is because religion is seen as a bit special when set against other belief systems. Can you imagine if I wanted to set up a school which selected only parents with proven commitments of time to working with anti-discrimination groups (who would include many liberal Christians, to defuse any undertone there)?

gooseberrybushes · 15/03/2011 12:57

And still she defends it. As by their silence, so do others.

donnie · 15/03/2011 12:58

SGB why do you use bigoted and vile language to describe religion? why do you keep being so deliberately offensive? seriously - why? terminology like 'toxic shit' etc? I am curious as to why you are compelled to be so abusive and spiteful.