How many Mums are dissatisfied with their DCs primary school?

[CrosswordAddict]

There seem to be a lot of dissatisfied Mums on MN and primary schools seem to be particularly disappointing. Any strong views? And if so, how can Mnetters become a force for change/improvement?

In my classroom the aim is to meet the needs of all my students. Some days I am better at it than others.

I hear you on that. I spent a grand total of three and a half years teaching maths to 13 year olds in Berkeley. At that time it was anathema to suggest that all students perhaps shouldn't be in heterogenous classrooms with mixed abilities. This was the big social programme, where more advanced or capable kids would model the way for the less fortunate. Looking back, it was a total sham, mostly for the less fortunate, because they were never given the opportunity to actually LEARN things they may have missed in earlier years . . . like fractions.

I find situations like emy's dd's to be tragic, and often the result of misplaced enthusiasm for social agendas at the expense of teaching agendas. So why exactly doesn't emy's dd get first dibs on teacher's time? Wouldn't this send the message to other kids that they would get attention, which they all ultimately want, only if they do the work, rather than the other way around?

Zaz I know this is a question but that would be a terrible way of thinking - what would then happen to those who cannot learn as quick?
That is pretty much the way the teachers done it in newtyle school and it just made the children who were easy to teach Brats.
Leaving my child who has learning difficulties at the side ..
Yes where it is a shame emy's child is left out because she is bright - the children who need teaching to catch up at the end of the day should have the same opportunity to learn, maybe it should be down to the government to push forward more funding to have a two classes to each primary one for the 'advanced' and one for those struggling giving it two teachers - Yes this would be a perfect world.

But do not assume those who struggle to learn are the ones holding back the rest it is at the end of the day government funding.

To answer the question, we live very rurally and the local school is our only option really. Even if we could afford private, the closest one is 20 miles away, which I feel is a massive trek for a young child.

There are good things about the school and I am sure that as all my children go through I will gain a better understanding of the way it works and how I can contribute to improve it...

We did seriously consider HE for my DD1 and had long and suffered conversations about it. However, we could not work it practically, so we are trying to make the best of the situation really.

emy, it sounds like your school is badly run rather than a natural consequence of comprehensive education

sometimes very small changes will make a difference: in my dcs' school the 5/6yos were responsible for changing their own books (which were sorted into boxes according to band)

by the time they had moved through all the bands, they could go on to free reading

and children were allowed to bring in books from home as well

but mainly, the teacher and TA worked together to enforce discipline and make sure noone was left unattended

the things you mention just shouldn't be happening in any school

I read this thread last night and pondered contributing but held back and as it is still active am pondering again.

My experience of dc first primary school has been, I have come to believe, fairly unique (thankfully). I have really strong opinions based on what I have been through and seen and am still, in one respect, seeing although dc are no longer there. I cannot comment further re specifics (you have no idea how infuriating this is!) as the case is with the GTC and this will be the case until July/September - so sorry.

Parents are quick to criticise individual teachers, the front line staff so to speak, whilst ignoring to a degree the role of the headteachers and the governing body. Herein lies the problem imo. I believe that it could be possible that the school governing body is far more responsible for problems within schools than they are given credit for. How many parents think that the LA is responsible for the recruitment of heads, deputies and teachers? Responsible for their salaries/annual reviews, school budgets and so on. I bet you a substantially larger percentage of parents believe the LA makes the decisions than those who know (or even care) about the school GB. The GB (generally well meaning volunteers and often pillars of the local community and sometimes very crucially very good friends of the ht - look at the recent case of the sacked/reinstated dinner lady) when it works, I have been told, works really well but is also open to dramatic failure.

My understanding is that a vast majority of teachers do their job with the ultimate aim of making a difference to a childs life, they have the childs best interests at heart and want to achieve the best for the kids in their class. What if though, the teachers have no guidance, no leadership, it's kind of a 'free for all' iyswim? What if this is a teachers first experience of teaching so knows no better? What if just one or two of the GB liase with the head and the rest attend meetings but are never given any responsibilities or indeed don't even know that salary reviews eg. are undertaken by the GB, by themselves?

The education of all of the children attending that school as a consequence suffers. A parent realises intuitively that things are not right and question and probe and attend meetings and complain and meet the ht and chair of gb and then at their wits end, leave the school and forget about the experience as their child is now achieving and happy in their new school. A cycle. It starts again, another parent, same old same old. And all of the time, the Chair of GB and the ht remain solid in their resolve not to involve anyone outside the 'circle'.

I am not in education. I believe firmly that it is all about good leadership. Obviously, you would think, this goes without question. I also believe that a good gb can make one hell of a difference in reshaping a school with problems. No doubt there are 'bad' teachers out there but of those that are good, many are brilliant and many more could be brilliant with more effective leadership.

There, said it now!

In Scotland, we don't have Boards of Governors.

At least at primary school level, it is the Education Dept of the local councils who appoint teachers and then allocate them to schools. The head teachers have no say in the appointments . So, for example, this year ds' primary school has a brilliant probationer teacher but the school has no way of ensuring that she can stay on, even though it has a vacant post Most likely, the school will get an extra new probationer next year instead.

The head teacher does have a say in promoted posts (eg principal teachers). However, the only time the "parent forum" have any say is in the appointment of the depute or head teachers, when sutiably trained members of the Parent Council ( if the school has a Parent Council: it doesn't have to, although it has a right to set one up) can sit on the interview panel, together with representaitves of the Education Dept (not quite sure what the format is for deputes, but for the head teachers, we were roughly equal in number).

We did have a diluted version of Boards of Governors until a few years, but our only real "power" was to recruit the head teacher. No real budget allocating power or anything like that.

Does the Education Dept in Scotland review teacher salaries and the like then? Would be interested to know how do you feel about the system in Scotland.

One of the major problems regarding school governing bodies in rural/village locations is that more often than not everybody knows everybody else and folk can become blind to potential failures within the system as their friends, neighbours, local business owners, members of the clergy and so on turn a blind eye fear upsetting the applecart so to speak. It is a good example imo of Mr C's Big Society in action. Historically, many on Mumsnet have reassured me (to a degree) that when it works it's brill but when it doesn't it can be a truly devisive tool.

Get the leadership right and the rest should follow.

Currently the power of this bunch of volunteers is truly unbelievable!

I agree, actually I couldn't believe that a bunch of random people - none of whom are still governors, btw - could have all the say on deciding who our new Head should be. They involved the staff in a part of the interview where the candidates had to make a presentation but when we pointed out our misgivings, including the spelling/grammatical mistakes (in a prepared presentation) of the succcessful candidate, we were ignored.

I think the GB are only responsible for hiring the HT and possibly Deputy HT, and salary reviews of HTs. (And of course their salary is largely dictated by the HT pay-scale thingy, their is very little discretion allowed.)

They aren't involved in either hiring other teachers or doing their salary reviews.

EmEyeHi - you are right that if both the HT and the Chair of the GB are weak, then a school will have huge problems which can't be addressed. And this does happen.

And like you said, when this does happen, the best thing to do is move schools and put the past behind you.....

I have been on two GBs, and it is very hard to affect any change at all - if the Chair and HT don't want any change.

The majority of the responsiblity for the school lies with the HT not the GB.

Feenie - :(

But I guess it is not normal in any job to hire your boss.....

Our GB are involved in staff interviews/appointments. I remember my own interview every single member turned out so 20+ people waiting for my words of wisdom [fear]...
but usually now only 2 or 3 are on the panel along with the HT and 1 or 2 members of the SLT. The governors were also involved in the interviews for TLR appointments.

I agree there too, Indigobell - but to have an interview panel with no education specialists at all? They had an LEA advisor there, but he had no say in the appointment. It's like me being on a panel to hire a local supermarket manager - bonkers.

Interview panels for teachers/TAs are normally me, the aforementioned Head and the Chair.

I once had an interview with 12 people on the panel, mrz - it was very scary, and I missed the first few seconds of every question trying to swivel my head from left to right to see who was speaking!

mrz - they sometimes are involved - but they shouldn't be.

The GB is meant to provide 'strategic direction', and the HT is meant to do all the day to day running of the school.

So the GB should not be involved in interviewing anyone not in the SLT....

Feenie - yes, absolutely bonkers.

The 'system' is def not right at the moment. ( There OP - I finally admitted to a problem )

The GBs I have sat on have had 'educational specialists' on them - but that still doesn't mean they were qualified to hire a HT.

I haven't been involved in hiring a HT. Does seem like someone like a SIP from the LEA should be involved as well as the governors....

This current discussion just serves to reinforce the fact that there different gb's have differing agendas. Surely, this can only have the unwitting effect of compounding the frustrations of unhappy parents.

I had no choice but to remove dc and to walk away and forget would have been easy but........the system is wrong. I know the children we left behind are not getting the education they are entitled to. If I can in any way help that change then I am not going to give up. I believe in parental 'choice' for their childs education (ie.state or fee paying - I am firmly with the former however) but still to see desperate parents considering private education that wouldn't under normal circumstances be on their radar, as there are now no state places left in other local schools because there has been so much migration is very, very sad. It's a really slow process but...

There has been mass resignation of GB and the current GB is much more savvy with what they are faced with but it's all time - and the education of children cannot be temporarily suspended.

How do you feel about the schools that have the School Council on the appointment panel?

school council - you mean the children on the appointment panel? Just ticking boxes IMO

yes I mean children asking the questions and voting on candidates

Does that really happen?

They don't take much notice of the kids' comments surely. It's all box ticking.

Not sure how much notice they actually take of the children but in the two appointments I know of personally the successful candidate was the one chosen by the children ... could be a coincidence (but I wouldn't have voted for either)

really? That's interesting. I don't think it's a good idea to allow children to have the deciding vote in choosing a teacher personally. You can't really tell much about a person's ability to teach from an interview, but you can find out a lot from a reference and an observation.

They thought the successful candidates were "fun" but obviously they hadn't been involved in the short listing process.