Urgent advice needed about social exclusion

[LostinSuburbia]

I am stuck between two school options.

My dd is currently in a small Kindergarten class where she is a minority. I had hoped that she would not suffer because of this but it turns out that she is. At the beginning of the school year a Mum invited everyone over to her home and pointed and unashamedly made it clear that we were not welcome. Other Mums were embarrassed by this gesture. Also, a girl who my daughter is friendly with and who is kind and sweet with my DD insisting on holding hands when they leave the school gates explained to me today that she is not allowed to come play with my dd at our house. Her Mum will not allow her. Generaly the rest of the Mums are a tight knit crowd who smile and make occassionaly small talk but it stops there. Invites are ignored and not forthcomming. I have checked with the teachers about my dd's behaviour and they have said that she is well behaved and is liked by most of the class. I have seen the affection some of the girls have for my DD.

A few Mum's who I have been friendly with and arranged play dates with are switching schools. So my DD faces the prospect of continuing social isolation with regards play dates and after school events. I do notice that generaly Mum's of 4 year olds have a direct influence on who their children befriend. Playdates often lead to firm friendships in school.

Do you think this is reason enough to switch her school? Her current school is well run with high standards and good teachers.

Naturaly her young age makes switching schools easier. However, with my recent last minute enquiries the only school that has a place for her is struggling and less established. She will not be a minority there. The main concern is that it will be a mainly boys class with perhaps 3 girls. So that in itself will limit her friend pool. From my own observations at age 4 boys tend to play with boys and girls seek out the girls.

Race and religion does not play a part in who I befriend. However, not all people see things that way and my DD's self esteem seems to be at stake here. I am British so this is an unusual situation I find myself in.

This is a sensitive topic so please respond sensitively. Thanks

Personally I would leave her where she is. I know it is hard and ridiculously unfair but I think it is sometimes a case of better the devil you know.

The little girl that holds hands with your daughter, have you asked her Mum directly if she can come and play. I only ask as if one of the DC's ask me if they can go to so and so's house I always say no as I expect the Mum to contact me and not leave it up to a 4, 5, 6 year old child to do the asking.

You may get a different answer if you do.

May I ask why it is you feel your dd is being isolated. ie, skin colour, religion, beliefs?

Thank you Jaquelinehyde for your advice.

I was walking with the two girls holding hands and my dd asked this sweet girl to come over at which point she replied that she has asked but her Mum does not want her to come to our house. She is not allowed. I spoke with the Mum in December and said to her that the girls play and we should get them together. She nodded made herself busy and I have not seen her since. All the Mums have each others e-mails and phone numbers.

I do think that this concern is religious based. The families themselves are minorities in this country (but not in this class dynamic) and they cling tightly to their culture and faith which I may add I have no qualms with. However, when you are preventing little girls from developing their friendships I think that is just sad and unfair.

(Btw, I am always clear about offering vegetarian food should anyone come over due to religious dietary concerns.)

I am worried that my dd will internalise this and loose confident social skills/self esteem.

I think if your dd is happy there and the other dcs are playing with her at school, I'd leave her there. Is she moving to a different school for reception in the summer anyway?

Yes I would agree that mums choose their dcs friendships at age 4. But by age 5-6 they start to choose their own. And the ones their mums have chosen for them can start to fall apart.

These people are being unfair and narrow minded. But I think if you and your DD are happy with the school, play the long game and keep her there. Find some after school activities a bit further away to encourage some new friendships for your DD.

Also, 4 year olds don't always give a true picture of events. Her friend may not have meant this in the way you've heard it. Her mum might be horrified by the impression her DD has given.

Our pre-school did some lessons on accepting diversity. Could you speak to the teacher about this?

Sorry - i haven't experienced this so I don't know if my advice is very valid. It must be very hard to leave your DD somewhere if you don't think she's being treated fairly.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, if your daughter is happy at school then there is no problem.

I would however, have a good think about how excluded you are feeling from the other Mums and whether maybe this is more of a problem for you than it is for your daughter.

Thanks eons26. I do think your advice is most valid.

I will text the Mum directly to see if I get a positive response but I suspect that it will not be.

This Kindergarten forms part of a primary school. So, unless I switch her she will be there untill age 11.

I have said to dh that we need to organise some weekend classes for her to increase her social circle. Still, 5 days a week in an atmosphere where she is the outsider for no fault of her own will and does sadden her as it would all of us. However, the difference being that her personality and character is developing and this experience could have a marked affect on her confidence. She has begun to appear awkward when for the most part she has been a happy confident and friendly child.

Last week she came home complaining that two girls offered to be friends with her if she let them cut her hair off. Not sure what to make of that. Is it role play gone wrong or again a case of being different and treated that way?

Please share with me your thoughts. I am realy quite distressed about this.

Are you in Britain? It is just your reference to kindergarten rather than nursery.

Hi Lostin

It does sound really upsetting.

Sometimes it helps to suggest a playdate at a neutral place, like a soft play area. I tend to do this with mums I don't know very well. It's difficult at 4 as they're not quite ready to be left in a stranger's house but at the same time it's a bit awkward visiting another mum you don't know very well.

I see what you mean about changing schools if it goes up to age 11.

Perhaps it's worth looking at some other schools and seeing if you like them better. Are the mum's you are friends with switching schools because they're unhappy with the school?

OfftoNarnia

Yes in U.K. The school calls it Kindergarten (KG)

What do you all make of the hair cutting incident?

I would be worried by it and would want to speak to the teacher about it.

It's difficult really - because 4-5 year olds don't really have much empathy or kindness.

They recognise differences but in a very matter of fact way. Mine gets a lot of comments because she wears glasses - why are you wearing those, you look silly. why don't you take them off etc.

But this does sound a bit more worrying - although I'm not sure why.

I'm hoping someone with more experience will come along soon and help.

Makes me and for your dd, Lostin. Have you talked to the teacher about the hair cutting stuff?

I have no experience of this, as dd's school is very inclusive. But I think I would wait to see what things are like in Reception - a lot can change in a year, at this age, at least at a child level (as opposed to the Mums).

Are the Mums you have been friendly with switching to the other, less established school you mention? I suppose, at least, its a good thing that most of the Mums were embarrassed by the bizarre behaviour of the excluding Mum....

Just read your story
A friend had a similar problem - her DC was doing fine in school and had friends but he too was very much in a minority and had no one to play with outside of school. The other mums did not want to do 'play dates' and my friend found it difficult to chat to other mums in their close knit groups (this went up to year 1).
In the end she moved him to my DC's school which is very ethnically diverse with no one culture being predominant, He has flourished & made friends with children from lots of different backgrounds, as has she.

daffodilsinspring thank for your message.

I know my issue is felt in other pockets around the country but I do not know anyone myself who is going through this issue.

I appreciate why your friend switched her dc.

Responding to Jacquelinehyde: I understand why you may question whether the impact is more felt by myself. The aswere is: I am a big girl with my own set of friends and clear identity. The school gates experience is just 10-15 mins of my day. Where I draw the line is my daughter being ignored and marginalised just because we are of a different culture/religion. I want to protect her from social awkwardness and from any feeling that she is not worthy. Self esteem is key to stepping out in the wide world.

Elibean, the other two Mums are changing schools for different reasons officialy. That said I am sure that this dynamic that they also face has had some bearing. We have not spoke plainly about it although it has been hinted at.

As a Mum I feel torn as my dd's school which is more established and generaly better all round but the current alternative if she were to switch to the new school has about 80% boys and is less established and well thought of.

So would I realy be gaining dd a better situation?

I can see that some of you are suggesting that I should sit it out and it may resolve itself however, the affects on my dd at this age could mold her.

I would find a third school.

I think a move would be good but the alternative you mention doesn't sound like one you are happy with?

If an alternative is no good then she'd be better where she is. And you need to try to find the family who are not anti-your daughter. Surely there are some or one kid and parent who is open to friendship or are there some serious issues with your daughter?

Have you spoken to the teachers? I know they cannot socially educate friendships but if it's about race/religion or a disability they can refer to it in class like a mini-topic and demystify it and the kids might take this positive attitude onto their families.

Outside interests are great too.

Hullygully, believe me I am trying. There is a small glimer of hope with another school which would mean us relocating. If this were offered we would move. However, we have been told not to get our hopes up.

I am currently on the look out for a fourth option but at this time in the year it is tricky.

daffodilsinspring, I would love to find her a school with a healthy ethnic diversity. I have a strong appreciation for diversity which is something that I want to instill in my dd. However the current situation is not healthy.

Pancakeflipper

"are there some serious issues with your daughter" is a fair question which I touched on in my first posting.

I have to rely on my own gut feelings and what the teachers have to say. Nothing untoward is apparent. My daughter loves the company of other children younger or older than herself. She is not the loudest neither is she the quiet one. Seems to be for now somewhere in the middle. She is firm friends with a girl who is leaving this summer for another school and plays with a range of girls both in her class and in the older years. Believe me if she had poor social skills I would not need to involve myself in school tranfers. I could just work on that. I know that she is not a bully. She has good verbal abilities. However, she sometimes asks to play with children to be told no and has mention this a few times. So she is easily discouraged and possibly in some instances approaches it in a vunerable way. Please bear in mind that since September this is her first playground experience and I think a lot of kids take time building their confidence with that. Does that answere your question? Also please refer to my first two posts.

Lost - I have to be honest and say I really want to know who and what all the ethnicities are and how they impact on you and your dd!

But I appreciate you don't want to say. So, in the final analysis I think that if it seems that there is unlikely to be any improvement in the situation, I would move heaven and earth to send my child to a school where they, and me and our family unit, felt happy and that we "fitted." It's really, really important!

Good luck.

I think the key lies with the mothers - you say they are a tightly-knit group.

I'm not a minority - I'm exactly the same as everyone else round here - yet I experienced this "ostracising" when ds was in the early years of school. He was left out because I had not known the other mothers since the Stone Age. They didn't dislike us, they just didn't have history with us.

That said, I would investigate other schools and making a fresh start.

Also it is difficult to pass an opinion without knowing a bit more background. My dcs are friends with children of many different religions and cultures - but I suppose if say, ds was friends with a Moonie child (do they even go to school?) I might be a bit wary about him going to that child's house. I'm not saying you are a Moonie, of course, but we don't know!!

(And we want to)

I don't want to pry but please understand our comments will probably be wide off the mark - it's hard enough when the full facts and all the nitty gritty is laid out.

It sounds like your daughter is lovely.

So you are the minority in that classroom based on religion but their religion is not the majority one in the country?

And there is not one mother who is open to their child coming to play?

And its having an impact on your daughter? She's sensing exclusion?

Are there other alternatives? Are you sure there's only 1 alternative? Have you phoned round to see if there will places for year 1? Our LEA has 'control' on reception year on whom goes to what school but for year 1 onwards it's the actual school.

Year 1 seems ages off but it will fly.

I'd not worry too much on reputation of schools - visit and ask about them not just read reports. Use your common sense really. You know what sort of school your daughter would thrive in.

Hi Gramercy,

I hear you. Ostracising can happen for a number of reasons and it is never nice.

After all we are all social animals and most of us want to be included.

Within the group of dd's class. Some mums are just busy with their own set of friends and that is easier to accept. However, there are definately a number who show themselves to be quite 'tribal' lets say. So between the two it does not help my dd.

Hullygully, that is where I am heading but the current options are not ideal.

I have just left a message for her form teacher to call me. Double checking her social skills and seeing if she can shed some light.

Class majority are Pakistani. Would like to hear constructive comments from Mums of this community?

I am not a Moonie. I am a non-religious Brit. Middle of the road.

Hully gully, Not sure what you mean..."and we want to"....

"And we want to" know about the ethnicities. That's all!

Its probably not much help to you but I think the boy girl thing is down to personality. Ds (6) spends 90% time playing with the girls (although boys rock and girls suck) I never hear about which boys he has played with in school, only the girls. The kids are encouraged to play with the other kids despite the sex. It might not be the issue you make it out to be.

However, can understand the wish for another option in terms of school.