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Why is MN so obsessed with reception reading?

1000 replies

skiphopskidaddle · 04/02/2011 10:00

It's a marathon, not a sprint. It doesn't matter if Johnny is on red and Amy is on lilac as (a) different schools go at different paces and (b) children develop different skills in different order.

I can't quite believe the number of reception reading threads I've seen this week along the lines of "what colour book is yours on?". I'm going over to the behaviour/development board now to check for obsessive posting about when children learn to walk. Cos it doesn't matter either, in general.

OP posts:
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medoitmama · 10/02/2011 17:39

In answer to the original OP, yes I am a little preoccupied with my dd1s reading, (she is in reception). But not because I want her to be "the best", only because I struggled terribly at school. Felt really stupid the whole time because I just couldn't do it. In my teen years my sence of self esteem was very low and I even self harmed. I came from a very academic family and noone could understand why I struggled.

I was later diagnosed with dyslexia. Although I don't think my dd is dyslexic, I do worry because I know what it is like to struggle and would not wish it in a million years for my dds. As far as comparing to others is concerned, this is a useful gage of whether or not she is struggling. She has bought home one set of "tricky words" but I know from Isobella's mum that she has 2 sets. If Isobella's the brightest in the class that's fine, but if my dd is the only one not to have received her 2nd set, then that's not so good! If half have, half haven't that's probably ok too!

medoitmama · 10/02/2011 17:44

BTW it took me over an hour to read just a part of this thread! Still very frustrating for me.

mrz · 10/02/2011 17:49

medoitmama I think there is a huge difference between wanting to ensure your child is supported (as you obviously are) and obsessing over colours of book bands and comparing with other children in the class.

magdalene · 10/02/2011 19:45

Medoitmama - I can understand why you want your daughter to do so well given your own experiences of school. I do sympathise as I had similar feelings throughout my school life. You have to try and keep it out of your mind though as it is colouring your judgement a little. Also, your daughter will pick up on these negative feelings and it won't do her any good at all. Just keep reading to her; try not compare her with her peers as it will make you feel more anxious. Speak to her teacher and ignore MN threads about their children reading at 3 or 4. It is not representative.

mathanxiety · 10/02/2011 19:51

I think the British educational practice of differentiating in the classroom leads to much more harm than good where self esteem is concerned, and it leads to all sorts of undesirable parental feelings and behaviour. Streaming of entire classes is fine when children are older and they (and the parents) can handle it emotionally. But in the early years and within groups I think it causes problems.

magdalene · 10/02/2011 20:04

Absolutely agree with you mathanxiety! Especially when there is such a huge variation of ages - some are 5 and the summer borns are so tiny! Much better to stream when they are 7 or 8 and you have a clearer picture of where their abilities lie then. Bloody Britain!

mrz · 10/02/2011 20:08

Streaming is great for children's self esteem? Hmm

mathanxiety · 10/02/2011 20:20

That's not what I said, Mrz. I said they could handle it better when they're older, and it's fine at that point imo, because there are genuinely different abilities and aptitudes and ways of learning and these really only become apparent when children get older. But streaming for 6 year olds is telling a child something about himself that may or may not be true at an age when children are busy forming their self-identity and finding their place among their peers. Basing any part of that identity on academic performance, when that performance is still very much in a state of flux, is a bad thing and be a self fulfilling prophecy too often.

The streaming my DCs encountered started when they were 12, in the US. Up to then they all did the same work in class. From age 6 to 12 there was a folder called 'Never Done Work' in each desk for each child; when class work was done they could take out their folder and forge ahead with the activities there. Parents were welcome to provide any extra educational activities they thought appropriate at home, any time.

maizieD · 10/02/2011 20:55

@mathanxiety

"The Engelman site shows some of the swirling storms that rage around public education int he US and elsewhere (more or less) and why the lack of empirical biological data makes the arguments so circular and so unproductive."

Are you wanting empirical biological data on all teaching methods for all aspects of the curriculum, or is it just teaching reading which demands such an exacting burden of proof?

I presume that it is your extensive reading of the literature on all aspects of teaching reading and your long experience of teaching children to read which has convinced you that any old which way will do to teach children to read until the scientists come up with the goods?

Are you aware that America has already extensively tried the 'lets teach hearing children to read the same way we teach deaf children' technique (devised in the 19th century) and the results aren't very pretty?

mathanxiety · 11/02/2011 01:34

?

I would like to see if phonics are really necessary for an entire classroom of children to learn, or if individual learning styles could be identified and catered to. I would like to see why it is necessary to have differentiated classrooms in the elementary years, or if is this is merely some bean counter's version of education where the maximum is squeezed out of a teacher and the available space. I would like to see if the model that is successfully followed in Finland, for example, has anything to inform systems where formal teaching begins much earlier.

If you're familiar with the current state of public education in the US, you will be aware that it's taxpayer funded, by district, through property taxes and therefore highly segregated according to wealth/income, albeit with some funds provided by the individual states, and that it is not a federally run programme (though the Department of Education has the right to issue mandates like No Child Left Behind).

The debates around education include funding, whether throwing more money at education improves outcomes, whether the problems of integration and levelling the playing field can really be tackled through schools, whether America really is a classless society 'with liberty and justice for all'; above all the debate swings on the money, why parochial (church, mainly Catholic), fee-paying schools seem to do a much better job of educating even inner city children, whether financing of schools should be more equitable and not based on the property values of the school district, whether big city school districts squander money in administration, whether public money should be given to parents in the form of vouchers to allow them to send their children to private (church) schools, whether 'charter schools' (essentially private schools independent of school districts) should be set up (Engelman runs such a school) -- Engelman can't be taken out of the context in which he works, which is specifically the American school system with its rigorous separation of church and state and its long heritage of serving as a nation-building sausage machine, that is routinely ordered by the courts to undertake various make-overs of society, like racial integration, secularisation, etc., roles that have nothing to do with teaching academic subjects at all.

I do not believe that any old way will do when it comes to teaching reading or any other subject. I am concerned with the question of why some countries experience great success in the international rankings even though they start formal teaching later, while British schools seem to achieve mediocre results yet start younger. I am concerned with the loss that some students experience as a result of that insistence on starting younger and the sorting of students at a young age when it is possible that rates of neurological development may be very different from student to student yet students may be vulnerable in the emotional sense to such sorting.

It seems to me that there is a preoccupation with sorting and classifying of people in Britain (expressed in the class system and identifiers of 'class' markers) that gets full rein in schools, to the detriment of educational goals, and I would like to see if this is justified, given the experience of other countries where no such preoccupation exists.

The poor educational outcomes in America that you mention are not experienced across the board. A huge number of American students from a wide variety of socio-economic and linguistic backgrounds succeed very well in school. Trouble is, the reasons they do are not very well understood. Hence the need for data, and much more research.

Mashabell · 11/02/2011 07:20

Mathanxiety,
There were only small differences in the scores of all developed countries in the recent international rankings. They were quite insignificant, just something for the media to rant about.

But I find it hard to understand why anyone has trouble seeing that English spelling irregularities have enormous educational and other consequences. Learning the pronunciation of just 50 or so spellings for reading is clearly much easier, takes less learning and less time, and depends less on home support, than doing so for 185, particularly as 69 of those spellings have more than one pronunciation (e.g. should shoulder shout).

Compared to English, learning to read other European languages is incredibly easy. I first began to learn English at the age of 14 in Lithuania, the year before moving to Germany in 1959, where I had to start learning German too. (I had spoken it a bit before 7, before starting school, but never after that and had never read or written it.) So I was learning to read and write German and English pretty much simultaneously, although I was more immersed in German until I came to England as an au-pair in 1964, aged 19.

Learning to read and write English was incomparably more difficult than German. I get frustrated that I haven?t got the talent to explain clearly enough just how uniquely difficult English literacy acquisition is, and what a huge educational handicap the inconsistencies of English spelling are.

I saw the difference again when I went on to learn French, Spanish and Italian. Compared to English, learning to read those is dead easy. French is a little harder, but compared to English, still a piece of cake.

What struck me immediately when I first came to London was how much more concerned and anxious parents and children were about learning to read and write. It's one of the many consequences that the irregularities of English spelling have.

mrz · 11/02/2011 07:32

What struck me immediately when I first came to London was how much more concerned and anxious parents and children were about learning to read and write. It's one of the many consequences that the irregularities of English spelling have.

I think you are making huge leaps to try and support your pet theory. Perhaps you need to get out more because I have rarely seen anxious parents and children worrying about learning to read and write in all my years of teaching very young children but perhaps that is because we use phonics very successfully.

mathanxiety · 11/02/2011 14:48

Oh the anxiety Masha speaks of is much more evident in Britain than anywhere else I have experience of, Mrz. I don't think it comes from realising that English is a 'quirky' language compared to others, though. I think it's an expression of the general British rat race culture for want of a better term. Though maybe the irregularity of English contributes to the feeling that life is an unpredictable free-for-all and that you therefore have to exert yourself to get whatever edge you can for your child...

Other English-speaking countries are much more laid back about age of reading and writing, most notably the US. Perhaps an expression of American confidence in tried and true American systems, perhaps an expression of American egalitarianism...

It makes me Smile to see posters' comments on Irish names in Baby Names; spelling and pronunciation are so simple in Irish once you master the basic rules.

mrz · 11/02/2011 16:43

mathanxiety that is interesting as I found the US much more paranoid anxious pushy about education/literacy

IndigoBell · 11/02/2011 17:46

Def think NZ and Oz are more laid back.....

mrz · 11/02/2011 18:01

New Zealand the home of Reading Recovery

mathanxiety · 11/02/2011 20:38

Reading Recovery site. The programme is aimed at 6 year olds who are struggling after their first year in school.

mathanxiety · 11/02/2011 20:48

In general the US government and individual states worry about literacy levels. Most middle class parents seems to assume their children will learn when they are ready given an encouraging environment.

Programmes like Headstart that are aimed at disadvantaged children and their families seek to provide a preschool experience that might make up for deficiencies in childcare and a preschool environment that offers little stimulation, as it has been recognised that most middle class children arrive in Kindergarten at age 5 having been read to, talked to, sung to and provided with a wealth of less obvious experiences that enhance the ability to learn while still at home or in decent quality daycare, while the disadvantaged children tend to have parents lacking in the kind of resources that make this sort of exposure possible, who tend not to appreciate the importance of providing a stimulating environment for their children.

But the US still frowns at exposure to formal teaching of reading until age 6 or so. Most US parents would be horrified at the thought of a 4 yo bringing homework home. Public schools don't even accept students until age 5 or so, for Kindergarten.

magdalene · 11/02/2011 22:26

Mrz - no need to be rude to mashabell. We all know how defensive you are of the education system here but do let other people express a point of view. Perhaps you are defensive because deep down you can see there are many flaws (despite your perfect phonics teaching!!)

Feenie · 11/02/2011 23:00

Magdelene, Masha has been spouting this reform nonsense on various forums for years, and it's very wearing. It makes you defensive - and also very weary. Her entire evidence for her viewpoint that children struggle to read using synthetic phonics are parents who contact her wanting any kind of reading advice, and despite having no experience in teaching children to read whatsoever, she preys on 'advises' them.

maizieD · 12/02/2011 00:20

mathanxiety,

I will reply to your earlier post, but I have to say that Reading Recovery is a dreadful 'intervention' and has been judged so by independent international researchers.

One of the most interesting things I have discovered about RR over the years is that they fight shy of any independent research project which aims to make a direct comparison of RR with another intervention, particularly structured phonics. In fact, to my knowledge they have never participated in such a study... Hmm

mrz · 12/02/2011 07:53

I don't need to defend the education system Magdelene or my own teaching but I hate the type of mis-information which Masha seems to wallow in

magdalene · 12/02/2011 08:09

But it is a point of view mrz and you also need to accept that not all schools are like yours and not all teachers are competent. If teachers could explain a bit more how reading is taught and involve parents more in the process then perhaps there wouldn't be all this anxiety. Why is reading recovery a dreadful intervention maizieD? There are a few kids in my child's class who have extra time with a parent helper (year one). Is this 'reading recovery'? Isn't it better to spot problems early on? Although it is a bit early age 5!

IndigoBell · 12/02/2011 08:29

Extra time with a parent helper is def not reading recovery.

Reading Recovery (whether or not you agree with it) needs to be done by a trained teacher.

It is also not too early to spot at age 5 kids who have problems.

My DD is having severe problems learning to read (Year 3, 8 years old, level 1c, Yellow band books). Her difficulties have been plainly obvious since she started nursery. But everyone pretends you can't spot reading problems until you're 7. And so just ignore all the evidence staring them in the face. ( Can't learn letters, can't learn key words, can't blend....)

She's had loads and loads of extra help, some of it by parent helpers, some of it by untrained TAs, and none of it works.

But schools don't care whether or not the extra help works, they only need to be able to say that they have given extra help.

It is a big huge myth that 'early intervention' helps. Early intervention only helps if the initial teaching was rubbish in the first place. And if that is the cause, then clearly the solution is training teachers better, rather than concentrating on spotting the kids who teachers fail....

Then, if we ever got rid of all the rubbish and myths surrounding teaching reading, someone might finally be able to address kids who are having serious difficulties, as opposed to kids who have just been taught badly :(

mrz · 12/02/2011 08:31

So would you support Masha's campaign to spel "you" as U magdalene?

Reading Recovery involves 1-1 instruction for children identified as struggling (but they exclude the real strugglers) which is at the heart of it's "success" any approach given that level of support will demonstrate an improvement. Reading Recovery has been criticised because, at £2,000 to £2,500 per child (12 weeks), it is expensive and research from Australia (where it was widely used) indicate that initial progress isn't long term and once the programme ends the child will eventually fall back and it in fact is only effective with 1-3

^Weaknesses
--According to a journal article by Meree Reynolds and Kevin Wheldall, Reading Recovery has some weaknesses. Some studies have shown that students with poor phonemic awareness continue to struggle in this area, particularly those students who have severe difficulties with reading. When students were tested after the program was completed it showed that Reading Recovery had not helped with deficiencies in phonological processing. Another weakness of the program is the high cost of implementing the program. Although the cost can vary, when including the program itself, teacher training, resources, etc, the cost can be as high as $9,000. Some educators do not agree that the program has to be used on a one-on-one basis. They feel that small groups could be just as effective and would also help to eliminate some of the high costs of the program.^
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