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Gifted at maths; what should DS's prep school be doing?

35 replies

Checkmate · 22/01/2011 14:09

My DC go to a nurturing, non-selective school, which gets fabulous results when the girls leave at Y6. Loads I like about it, especially for DD1 in year 4. Prep department has fully subject specialist teaching, setting etc... Boys stay just for pre-prep, which is a more homely environment.

However, DS1, an August birthday in y2, is very able, particularly with maths, and has been complaining; "I love maths, but not booooring school maths, like doubling and halving AGAIN". Last years teacher has been there a long time, has a lot of autonomy, and did the y2 curriculum with him instead of y1. Plus, his maths went from a bit ahead at just 5, to a lot ahead at just 6, we've observed.

At parents evening in Nov, new teacher (whose reputation is of being inflexible) confirmed that he's very bright, and particularly "gifted" (her word, not mine; I'm not sure if that's the case) in maths. He's in the top of 2 Sets, though these are very fluid and cover the same work. He's on a "challenge" table in that set, who get problem-solving activities based on the same topics as rest of the Set. His teacher disagreed with us, though, that even this was too easy for DS1; said he didn't always get it all right (though it looked in his books like he did), and said that he hadn't told her he is bored in maths, or "exhibited boredom through being naughty" Hmm

We decided to continue to encourage DS's maths at home, to drop it as an issue with current school, and to focus on applying to academically selective prep schools for him (rather than going to the also non-selective "brother-school" of this one as most of his friends will). He enjoyed his 7+ tests over past few weeks, and we're waiting on results.

All of a sudden 2 weeks ago, teacher called me and DS1 in to say "it is now clear that DS1 isn't being challenged by the challenge table, and needs something further, so we're moving him to top-set of year 3 for maths lessons as of next week." DS1 was thrilled about this, though DH and I felt some reservations.

Next thing to happen was; nothing. The promised move to y3 maths hasn't happened, the teacher keeps telling me its "logistics" and they now prefer option of him doing y3 work in the corner of the y2 classroom. But no decision. He comes home sullen and moody about this every day (though also happy and chatty about sports, class play they're rehearsing, other lessons etc..)

Partly, we think we owe it to DS to nag and make this thing happen, now that he's been promised it. Partly we can't be arsed, as he only has a term and a half left, and we're not sure being marked out as so different to his peers is in his best interests anyway...

...Then, I heard from a friend who works for the school that the inspector-team are in the area, and this school thinks it will be next for inspection. (Last one 2004; change of head in 2006). Apparently 3 weeks ago Head informed the staff to please "dot every i and cross every t", especially with regards to anything that parents might complain about to the inspectors.

This has really pissed me off. I think the teacher is trying to fob me off with the promise of stretching DS1, but no real intention of fulfilling it, to stop us giving bad feedback to inspectors. This is, in essence, lying to a child. Or am I unduly cynical?

I would love advice on how, in a group of 16 children, a child whose maths is between 1 and 3 school years ahead depending on the area, should ideally be catered for? (So I can push for that to happen.) Or should I just talk DS1 out of expecting much, and continue as we were?

Not sure if primary education or g&t is best place for this; will try primary education first I think.

TIA - sorry so long!

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stoatsrevenge · 22/01/2011 14:24

How can he do Y3 work in the corner of a classroom? Surely he needs some of the teacher's time to progress at his rate?!

What is he doing in maths at the moment? Why can't she differentiate what the others are doing?

Checkmate · 22/01/2011 14:41

He seems to be re-doing what lovely y1 teacher did with him last year, stoatsrevenge. Sad Albeit with "problem-solving" sheets about each topic, rather than the book he worked from.

She said that differentiating a lot of the y2 syllabus for a child working at a much higher level (now that this has been acknowledged Hmm) is very difficult, as things like doubling, halving, number bonds, other things I can remember, are not in the y3/4 syllabus. Unlike other lessons, she doesn't have a TA with her for maths (as both TA's help in the "lower" set, which is bigger) and she says she can't teach 1 topic at 2 different levels (to the main Set and the challenge table) and a completely different topic to DS1 at the same time.

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stoatsrevenge · 22/01/2011 15:09

I also work with top set without a TA and have to differentiate from children who are still a bit shaky with +/- tens and units using a number line, to several who can add and take away Th, hundreds, tens and units using vertical addition with carrying.

I think she's having you on!

And of course the higher years do number bonds! Any calculation entails us of number bonds to 10, 100, etc.

stoatsrevenge · 22/01/2011 15:09

not us! use! Grin

Checkmate · 22/01/2011 15:35
Grin

Helpful, thanks.

In a school with very committed teachers, she doesn't have a great reputation amongst the parents. The kids really seem to like her though, which reassured me a lot. She does seem to be differentiating well for DS1 in all the other subjects, but then again he is not as far ahead of the others as he is in maths.

Do you think I should get pushy or just focus on choosing the "right" next school for him?

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stoatsrevenge · 22/01/2011 15:42

I think you need to talk to her about what he's going to be doing in class. I don't think 'sitting in a corner doing Y3/4 work' is really acceptable, if it means that he's just going to complete endless worksheets!

He needs some teaching time to enable him to progress from his current level. If she can tell you how she is going to move him on, and what his next steps will be, then I would feel a bit happier about it.

MollieO · 22/01/2011 15:43

I'm afraid I would get pushy if I were you. You won't have to maintain the pushiness once you have sorted out the issue but it is worth doing in the short term. I had an issue with ds's prep that was being completely ignored. I ended up becoming the pushy parent from hell for three weeks and it was amazing to watch the transformation.

In ds's case it was a reluctance to do school work in general because it was 'boring'. I wondered if it was because it was actually boring and ds was bright (but didn't say this to the teacher). Instead I approached it from the other end and asked whether ds needed extra help or an ed psych referral. School off their own back did testing and discovered ds very bright indeed (he hides it well in class!). Teacher's attitude changed (ds no longer viewed as just naughty) and ds much happier.

I doubt I could have maintained the pushy approach for long but you need to remember that at any school (and it seems particularly prep) there are any number of naturally pushy parents.

Checkmate · 22/01/2011 15:52

Hmmm, yes thanks MollieO and SO again.

I'll ask again about the maths on Monday, and if I get nowhere will ask for a formal appointment with her and head of pre-prep together, I think.

I don't want him to be frustrated in maths every day for the next two terms, and I will be paying the school another £15k during that time Shock (I have 3 DC there).

Is my instinct right though, that going into a y3 classroom for maths, which is all 7-8 year old girls, might not be the best thing for a 6 year old boy?

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stoatsrevenge · 22/01/2011 15:52

Mollie, I think the problem here is the teacher's approach to differentiation within the class.
Everyone knows already that Checkmate's ds is working at a higher level. That doesn't need proving.

Check just needs to ensure that the teacher is going to move her ds on, rather than let him stagnate.

JiltedJohnsJulie · 22/01/2011 18:23

Am just marking my place as we have been told our DS (6) is gifted with maths, again their words, and moans about being bored.

Will come back later.

ninani · 22/01/2011 18:37

I can't offer any help, but I do remember our last inspection where the inspector wrote that more advanced children were given more sheets rather than harder and this made them bored.

kaumana · 22/01/2011 19:58

I know exactly how you feel. My DS (now 12) seemed to spend year upon year doing work sheets in a corner of a room occasionally "tutoring" other children in his class (from the age of 7).
He began to "hate maths" because it was "boring"
Spoke to the teachers,Head of maths and Head of school. Promises of moving up a year (in maths )etc never happened. They didn't seem to think this was an issue as I quote " He will easily hit the expected standard for his year group", Fair comment but he had already hit it the year before!!

Ended up moving schools at age 10 , to where he now thrives.

Good Luck, stand your ground.

MollieO · 22/01/2011 19:59

I suppose the point I was making is don't expect things to change unless you push, even though it is a prep school and you are paying fees. Whilst the school know Checkmate's ds's level they aren't actively doing anything to support it. In my ds's case the teacher wasn't interested in understanding why ds refused to do his work.

stoatsrevenge · 22/01/2011 20:22

'...they aren't actively doing anything to support it'...

Even worse than that, they're not doing anything to help him progress further!

squidgy12 · 23/01/2011 09:35

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stoatsrevenge · 23/01/2011 13:16

But if he can already do the year above work, it means that it isn;t helping him to progress. Somewhere along the line, the teacher must do some teaching to enable this progression.

Check - what is your ds working on at the moment? Maybe people on here can give you some specific advice for your meeting with the teacher.

activate · 23/01/2011 13:19

go to teacher and say "This has really pissed me off. I think the teacher is trying to fob me off with the promise of stretching DS1, but no real intention of fulfilling it, to stop us giving bad feedback to inspectors."

squidgy12 · 23/01/2011 13:28

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belledechocchipcookie · 23/01/2011 13:30

I really wouldn't teach him maths at home as well, this is going to lead to a lot of boredom at school. They should be stretching him by giving him extension work, if the class are doing division with tens and units then he should be doing the same work but with hundreds, tens and units if you see what I mean.

I also wouldn't be so judgemental about the school. You need to support them to be honest. Moving him into a different year group to do maths isn't the best thing for him as they should be able to support him in his age group. What's going to happen when he reaches year 6? Are they going to allow him to go to a secondary school for maths subjects? I imagine not.

If you are unhappy with the school then vote with your feet and look elsewhere but as you are doing this anyway then I wouldn't worry.

Checkmate · 23/01/2011 16:53

This thread has moved on a lot. Thanks for all the further ideas.

stoats - You have hit the nail on the head, that the teacher isn't actually teaching him anything mathematical, not helping him to progress at all.
Regarding your question about what he's working on at the moment. Well, everything my y4 daughter can do, he can do. So decimals, fractions, knows his times tables, squares/square roots, simple probability. He is doing his spellings while she does her maths homework, and I've had to ban him from looking over her shoulder and giving her the answers! Sometimes she gets work that he doesn't understand as he hasn't been taught the rule or symbol, so the other day it was more than/less than, and I heard her telling him what < and > meant, and then he was doing the sums on a separate sheet but faster than her. (She's in the 2nd top of 5 streams so not bad at maths.)
The only homework I can think of that she's had this year that he hasn't been able to do, even after her explaining it, was telling the time at y4 level. Also some weights/measurement work.

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stoatsrevenge · 23/01/2011 17:19

Here's a link to the numeracy framework that should give you an idea of progression through mathematics in primary. If you look at it as a child's progression through mathematics (rather than 'year group' objectives) you will be able to use it to work out your ds's 'next step' from where he is at the moment.

nationalstrategies.standards.dcsf.gov.uk/node/110240

I hope that helps, espeicially as it has the Y6/7 progression as well.

It may take a while, as each strand is separate! Smile

Checkmate · 23/01/2011 17:27

Thanks loads stoats!

Will have a look at that, and answer others' comments, above, once got the DC bathed and bedded.

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TheBookcase · 23/01/2011 18:52

I am in a similar situation. Even though the teacher has put my son in the top set, it is still same old, same old for him. I have more or less given up on the school teaching him anything new.
If you wanted to be proactive, you could check out the Royal Institution in London. They run maths masterclasses for secondary schools, but also - to a smaller degree - for primary school. There might be a masterclass near where you live, or alternatively, you could approach the school, tell them about it, and get one started.
Here is the link: www.rigb.org/contentControl?action=displayContent&id=00000002882

Checkmate · 23/01/2011 19:43

MollieO - Yes, I agree that I should get pushy now. I think that DS1 not behaving badly when he's bored in maths has gone against him - the teacher specifically said that "he can't be bored and know it all already or he'd be misbehaving". Hmm I don't think that her approach allows for a child like mine, who is polite and well mannered. (Don't know how we've managed that, DD's and DS2 are cheeky little buggers!)

kamuna - yes, changing school is going to work wonders for DS1, too, I suspect. Not that this school hasn't been great for him -he learned, thrived and loved it from nursery until the end of Y1. But he's outgrown it now.

squidgy12 - If he gets into the school we're hoping for, (its uber competitive to get a place) the work there is much harder right from the start (which is what DS1 loved about it when we looked round), so having done the maths syllabus for the year or two ahead won't matter. He definitely won't be the best at maths in the class if he gets in there. Plus, there will be lots more "sideways stretching", like chess club (he's mad on chess but none of current friends are interested).

belle - Its not like we sit down and formally teach him extra maths... we've certainly bought no workbooks or anything like that. (Even if we had the inclination, we have no time - DH works away during the week, and I have a small business, and 4 DC of 8 and under, and am pg with DC5!) DS1 just absorbs everything mathematical that floats past him; that's the best way I can think of to explain it. Partly because he has an older sister and they sit and do homework together, and partly because we have a policy of answering our DC's questions as honestly and with as much detail as we can, a lot of maths floats past him. As I've said above, there is a lot I love and respect about his school. Because of that, we haven't reacted quickly to this situation. But I'm starting to think we've under-reacted a bit.

The Bookcase - Thanks for that link. Will look at it.

activate - Are you a teacher or a parent? Grin I don't think I'd dare say that, it's only an idea I've had, I have no evidence. It may be the most effective thing though, hmmm.....

Off to read national strategies!

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Checkmate · 23/01/2011 19:58

Stoats - DH has been looking at that weblink while I've been mnetting Blush and he thinks its so helpful, so thanks. Anyway else reading this thread in the hopes of working out what to do ith your DC whose advances with maths, its well worth a read.

We're going to print out all the strands, then highlight the things he can do now (ignoring the yeargroup mentioned as stoats suggests), and then I'll take it into school for my meeting with the teacher, to ask how she's going to progress him towards the next thing in each section.

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