Westminster Under School

[lvd]

For any parents with sons at Westminster Under (or who know parents with sons at the school): what do you think of the new Master? Have there been any changes in the school since her arrival? Are teachers and students happy? The Open Day in October was very chaotic and it was hard to get a feel for the Master (and for the school) on that day. We had visited previously and liked both the school and the prior Master but now have some doubts. I'd be grateful to read any thoughts from people who are more familiar with the school. In particular, I'm interested to know about the balance of the school between academics and other activities. The prior Master seemed to value a well-rounded education with sports, music and arts complementing the strong academics; the new Master seemed much more focussed on "cerebral boys" and didn't discuss things other than core academic classes.

Julia01: Unfortunately we are declining CC and accepting WUS-however we hope someone else will give up their place and you will get a chance. At the interview for CC and WUS we saw many of the same faces so there are places going to be free at one or the other.

If peole don't mind... can we have a bit of a roll call on which prep schools the successful boys went to?

About half of the boys at the interview we went to were from Wetherby.

Well done to all with acceptances!

Apologies for invading your thread, but I was wondering if any parents could advise us on how they made the choice to apply to the selective schools being discussed here on this thread. While we would like DS to attend one of these schools, at the moment we are unaware really of his aptitude and whether any of these schools will be suited for him at 7+. Alternatively, we have the option of him going to a prep school 4-13 without the rigamarole of 7+ and delaying of course the stress of taking the exams to one of these schools.

I wonder how the parents on the thread made this choice of 7+ or 11/13+ and at what point do you really know whether it is appropriate to work towards the 7+ entrance for your sons for one of these schools?

I noticed the comment from dragonmu that CC 8+ entrants have an 'automatic' place at St Pauls without having to pass at 13+, where as WUS entrants have to take a further test at 13+. I was under the impression that which ever you choose, there is an exam at 13+, but naturally the boys are very well prepared and therefore, ceteris paribus, most likely to pass. Can anyone shed further light on the matter?

does anyone know the level of credit places like CC and WUS give to siblings of boys already at the school?

There is a certain amount of automaticity for joiners to WUS at 11+ for entry at 13+. I don't think that applies from 7/8+, but staff will spot who they think will not make e grade, and the counselling out process will begin.

There isn't much sibling priority, in the sense that all siblings have to pass the exams to the requisite level. I'm not sure if any allowances are made at interview.

Westminster publishes annually the schools from which it's joiners arrive (in the Prospectus, additional information booklet). For 2011, 47 came from WUS (which includes all those who joined WUS at 11+). Schools which sent 5 or more boys: Dulwich Prep, The Hall, Hill House, North Bridge House. 2-5 boys: Trevor-Roberts, Sussex House, Durston House, Fulham Prep, Orley Farm. Plus one each from: Ashdown House, Caldicott, Chafyn Grove School, Cumnor House, Devonshire House, Dragon School, Eaton House The Manor, Habs, King's House, Lochinver House, Lyndhurst House, Mall School, New Beacon, Newton Prep, Notting Hill Prep, Rokeby School, St Anthony's, Sutton Grammar, Summer Fields, St Philip's, The Academy School, Thomas' (Clapham), Thomas' (Battersea), Westminster Catherdral Choir School, Wetherby.

Obviously that's just a one-year snapshot. I should imagine at all of the more academic preps can prepare clever boys to the required level.

It is not true that there is automatic entrance into St. Paul's for boys who pass the 8+. Both 7+ and 8+ entrants must pass an internal exam to continue on to St. Paul's. There have been very rare cases of boys who don't pass (last year I think that one boy did not pass), but in general, most boys do pass without difficulty.

My son goes to a little non selective private school in SW London that goes up to age 11 for boys also so he had zero prep on the behalf of the school. We also didn't have a tutor and only did a few bond assessment papers starting before Christmas (but didn't have time to do whole books of them ) and learned more timetables . Therefore I'm very proud of him doing so well and getting offers in both school he went for . It's not necessarily the case of going to the right 4+ schools that preps you for these schools if you are just doing really well in general!

From CC's website, it seems that one still has to pass a "transfer exam" similar to the CE exam in order to go to the senior school. Nothing is automatic.

Also, my impression is that going to WUS gives you more options for senior schools and scholarships as they prepare you for it.

Colet Court: "The destination of leavers from Colet Court is naturally St Paul?s, although some boys may elect to transfer to other schools, often as a result of a change in parental circumstances. Colet Court has a good relationship with other senior schools, such as Eton and Winchester, and will support boys with appropriate references and recommendations. Although in some subjects Coletines sit 13+ transfer examinations set by St Paul?s School instead of Common Entrance papers, the syllabuses do not differ greatly and in practice senior schools are usually happy to accept the St Paul?s papers for entry. We do not prepare boys for scholarships to other schools, but will offer advice on what is required."

Centraltendency: from our experience, it took us about six months before entry exam date to determine whether our DS would be able to handle the challenges of the exam as well as the curriculum when he gets in. We've always thought our DS is above average intelligence but he has really blossomed over the last year to the point that it actually would be detrimental to his learning if he doesn't go to an academically challenging school next year. We've asked his current school numerous times to stretch him in math (he is Y5 math level) and they are trying to but the extent of this effort is giving him worksheets to do alone at his desk w/o benefit of a lesson. He is also an advanced reader and writer. Hence, we applied to CC and WUS in the hope that all the boys there will be at same level academically as he and they can learn together.

We have 2 more younger sons age 5.5 and 3 and we can't tell at this point whether they will be as academic as their older brother. It would be nice for all of them to go to the same school but this is wishful thinking for now. I can totally see 4 kids in 4 schools!

Agreed with NordicMom. It doesn't matter at all which prep school your kid goes to in order to gain entrance to WUS and CC at 7+/8+. My DS is at a small, non-selective independent prep school in NW not mentioned by carltonscroop above and he received offers from both Colet Court and Westminster Under.

It depends primarily on the student's natural abilities and personality and parents' support at home in terms of prepping with over-the-counter books and websites after school and on the weekends.

I would assume most parents should be able to teach basic math and english at 7-8 y.o. levels such that professional tutoring is not necessary.

Thank you for your insights !! It is much appreciated. It is good to know that much of it depends on the child's natural ability rather than a long period of preparation or the 'right' pre-prep. DH and I are both academic over-achievers, so would hope the same for DS - but of course it is too early to tell right now (him being only 3.5) and I would rather he goes to a school that is right for him.

All the best to you and your DS's for successful years ahead !

Yes, if we can do it, you can too. If your DS is bright and "coach-able", it doesn't matter which prep school he goes to, even state school or homeschool for that matter. if you are self-described "academic over-achievers", then you can easily prep him yourself.

Kids at this age change a lot every 6 months so wait until a year before entry to determine whether you should register him for the exam and then prep him 6 months before in a slow drip approach so there is less pressure.

cyberdad: The 13 plus exam at Cc is an internal exam to st paul, not an external competitive one. To put it in other words it is an exam you really have to fail rather than the one you had to 'win' as your DS just did.

I would imagine that most WUS boys would be able to get 70% on the CE exam as "most boys continue to Westminster at 13+." I interpret this to be equivalent to CC's outlook that one has to fail the exam rather than win a place.

WUS: "There are 250 boys aged between 7 and 13 at the Under School. All boys are prepared for the Common Entrance examination and the most able pupils take The Challenge (scholarship examination) at Westminster or apply for scholarships elsewhere. Most boys continue on to Westminster at the age of 13 subject, of course, to their reaching the required standard in the Common Entrance Examination or being offered entry through The Challenge.

The pass mark for the Common Entrance papers is 70%. A boy who does not reach the qualifying standard in The Challenge will be asked to sit Common Entrance."

A few more thoughts: both CC and WUS prepare the boys very well for entrance to senior schools whether their own senior school or others and, more importantly, offer the boys wonderful educations between now and then. I don't think there's much difference between them in terms of either the education or the preparation for 13+ (Although CC doesn't specifically prepare for Common Entrance, the curriculum is almost indistinguishable so CC boys who are progressing normally should have no difficulty with CE if they chose to go to a school other than St Paul's).

As I continue to think about it, I do think the biggest difference is size and the implications of size. Because of the large campus, etc, I think CC is probably better suited for more robust, outgoing boys and WUS is better suited for more introspective boys -- though both schools attract a broad mix of personalities (My own son is probably more of a WUS "type" but is thriving at CC).

I was struck by a comment by the Master of WUS at the Open Day last year when someone asked whether the boys could go outside to play at break-time. She hesitated and then said "yes, but the more cerebral among them would probably prefer to just lie in the grass and think". Perhaps wrongly, we decided against WUS because of that comment (pulling at straws for other reasons....). At CC, boys are not allowed to spend break time inside, unless weather dictates otherwise. As our son is "cerebral" and likes nothing more than to sit and read and think, we were attracted to a school that would encourage him to spend time outdoors and are pleased to see him blossoming into not only an active child but a reasonably good sportsman as a result. (I'm glad to read in comments above that the WUS master has not imposed such a contemplative order on the school as she suggested in her first Open Day! It seems she does allow the boys to run around during their breaks and I'm sure they enjoy the benefits of the lovely Vincent Square).

Last comment -- for those who are contemplating 7+ or 8+ next year: both schools accept boys from a wide variety of state and private schools. It is not necessary to tutor your son. The syllabus is available on the website (same syllabus for both schools) and, if your son is able to do most of what's on the syllabus, no additional work is necessary.

Well done to those who received the offers at both WUS, CC and Kings college junior.
Just wondered if Kings is not the best choice as I heard so far, they have the IB (international bacalaureat) program which could be easier in the future.

Worth noting that IB is generally recognised as far more demanding than A levels!

And anyway Kings has recently announced that their coed 6th form will offer both IB and A levels from next year.

In my experience if your son is in a school that doesn't at all prepare for these exams then I do think it's in everyone's best interest to do some preparation. To make the child familiar with exam paper type worksheets. We found the Bond papers good . I think some practice helps but overdoing it isn't good either. We only did them on a few days for a few weeks when remembered / had time. That seemed to be enough for a boy with the ability required .
As far as how we decided DS was the right kind of boy for these schools. Well I always thought these were the ones to go for if he turned out to be as academic as DH (who went to Winchester and has two degrees from Imperial College). Already at nursery he showed promise and in reception and so on has always been doing so well without any pushing that we felt he could use the challenge . Also he 's a very sociable all rounder that is interested in everything which must have come out in the interviews (which must have been a plus). I think he'll be very happy where he's going!

Our DS is also at a small, selective pre-prep not mentioned in the above threads and yet they have had two boys accepted to WUS. In fact I think that schools such as WUS and CC go out of the way NOT to fill the places with hordes from Wetherbys, Eaton House and the like as they don't want to give the perception that these are guaranteed "feeders" and they want to avoid cliques once the boys arrive.

In terms of preparation, I think it is easier to prepare for CC, especially by doing work which is one year ahead of their current class and working on time pressure exercises where as WUS is more offbeat and is a better test of innate intelligence and ability.

All my DS did to prepare for the 8+ exams was doing the Bond books as well as writing essays on topics picked by me. The math questions in the Bond books were mostly straight calculations.

However, based on the last few math questions (which were the most difficult questions) on both CC and WUS exams, I think boys who did well in the math section must have had a good grasp of numbers in order to manipulate them to arrive at an answer. They were application type of questions so it's not enough to know how to add, subtract, multiply and divide.

DS told me of a last math question (most difficult) in one exam where they had to look at a chart with a few data points missing; based on the given data, they had to figure out the pattern in order to find the missing data points. Once he figured out the pattern, he had to calculate the answer using multiplication/factoring. He remembered the problem and all the data so we were able to work out the solution later at home. He got it right!

Hence, this tells me that the schools are looking for innate skills and not just knowing how to calculate something. The child has to know how to approach a problem and set up the equations necessary to arrive at an answer.

My DS was in a school that not only does not prepare for the e7+/8+ exams, but it doesn't even send in a Headmaster's report. My DS got in both schools purely on merit.

Tennismom: I think I remember my DS telling me about the data question you referred to. He also figured it out and was able to plot the graph at the end which was only possible if you had understood the pattern. However it is pretty impressive if your DS managed to remember all the data points to work out the problem with you afterwards. Wow!

I think the math portions of both WUS and CC were very straight forward and it was probably the essay and maybe the reasoning or vocabulary test that were the final seperators of those who were called for interview and those which were not. For example one of the essay topics showed a picture of a gorilla holding a girl's hand and asked the candidates to describe the gorilla's thoughts and feelings immediately after the photo was taken. Also there was a vocabulary test and a group based exercise. I would thus agree that tutoring is of limited value and it is far better to be well-read and emotionally and socially intelligent.

This girl and this gorilla? (Off topic) I love this book!

so that's where the idea came from- see my point about being well-read! ( guess something I am clearly not as I have never come across this book :).

Yes, DS was able to recall many of the questions asked (math problems like the balloons; essays like the advert/gorilla, vocab, group projects, interview questions) after the exams--of course, we were questioning him like crazy. LOL!

He's a chess player and is able to recall from memory perhaps the last 20 chess moves of a game.

He also told us about the gorilla and the girl essay. I had to laugh since the types of essay questions I asked him were more along the lines of "Tell me your favorite book and character; Compare UK vs. US political systems; Tell me a favorite place you've been; Who is your favorite historical figure, etc.).