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Primary education

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Original poster

Sexual stereotyping of boys

82 replies

greymatter · 15/01/2011 09:28

Hi,

At my son's school's sharing assembly, which I attended yesterday, the headteacher commenting on 3 year 5 boys who had just read out some beautifully descriptive prose. She annoumced that it was amazing to see them reading their work "as we all know that boys don't like writing". She then repeated this statement. I am beside myself. My son is just learnign to write and has been told by his headteacher that it;s not for him anyway, The school h as a satisfactory status which hasn't change din 2 ofsteds. HELP!!!! I talked to my little boy afterwards and we agreed that boys doen't like writing because they LOVE IT!!

Advice please. This head is a disaster area on many levels.

OP posts:

singersgirl · 15/01/2011 22:01

Just because something is generally true doesn't mean it's a good idea to say it. I wouldn't be happy with a HT saying in assembly that girls outperform boys all the way to GCSEs, even though it's true.

Original poster

greymatter · 16/01/2011 00:51

absolutely. let's face it girls don't like maths.. what a ridiculous thing to say!!!

OP posts:

ISNT · 16/01/2011 10:14

By pronouncing that one gender is good or bad at a certain subject, or likes/doesn't like it, you are flagging up the ones who like it/are good at it as being different. In some situations this would lead to the ones who could do the things they're not "supposed" to do being admired by all and sundry. Unfortunately in our society it's more likely to get them labelled as something less positive.

Girls who do subjects like maths and sciences are all too often held up as square, sad, whatever the current terminology is amongst children. And many girls know that these subjects are not the subjects that cool pretty girls do, and are therefore not desirable. Reinforcing this sort of nonsense is no good at all.

Of course it's not like that in all schools, but it happens, and it is often so insidious that people believe that children are making active "natural" choices when in fact they are picking up on all these cues and conforming to them.

Far better to treat children as individuals, celebrate what they are good at and enjoy, encourage them, help them with stuff they find difficult. And absolutely don't give then lots of ideas about what they may or may not be capable of based on their gender before they've even started.

mrz · 16/01/2011 10:19

I would argue that the head was in fact celebrating the success of these boys and encouraging others to aspire to follow. It's holding up the fact that boys (or girls) can be good at things.

ISNT · 16/01/2011 10:37

mrz don't you think the effect would have been achieved simply by praising the boys for their work?

Rather than announcing to the whole school "boys don't like writing"?

Would you be equally comfortable with the head of a primary school telling the assembly that "girls don't like sport"? Or "girls don't like science"?

I don't understand your POV.

mrz · 16/01/2011 10:51

and I'm afraid I don't see yours
and yes I would be equally comfortable with the head saying "girls don't like sport ... but look our girls have won the league or girls don't like science but look at how our girls have achieved outstanding results"
The message is at this school we challenge stereotypes and show the world that we can be successful at anything we choose

ISNT · 16/01/2011 11:01

So I could watch the olympics with my DD and say, those women can run very fast, they're very good at sport. It's very unusual as of course normal women and girls don't like sport at all.

it's just not fine.

How can you say it is OK for a teacher to stand up in assembly and say "Girls don't like sport, boys don't like english"?

I really don't get it.

It's not challenging stereotypes, it's strongly reinforcing them. Because what it is saying is that this sporty girl / this boy who is good at writing is so unusual as to require singling out - and children don't always want to be unusual - and why is saying they are unlikely to enjoy something an encouraging thing to say?

If I say to my DD, girls don't like maths. Some girls are good at maths, but generally girls don't like maths, how on earth is that a positive thing to say?

ISNT · 16/01/2011 11:05

Saying "Girls don't like sport" or "boys don't like writing" is not challenging a stereotype, it is fully upholding it as being true.

mrz · 16/01/2011 11:16

It would only be upholding it to be true if the head was saying and that belief is held up because look our boys can't write and our girls can't run ... by demonstrating that the belief has no truth in fact by examples of good writers who are boys (or girls who are good at sports) it allows children to question for themselves.

ISNT · 16/01/2011 11:39

The head didn't say that though, it's not what happened.

The head stated that boys don't like writing.

Not most boys, or some boys, but all boys. Boys don't like writing. Fact.

And then pointed to a couple of boys who had done some good writing as, frankly, the exception that proves the rule. Boys don't like writing, so these two are unusual, abnormal, boys don't like writing.

It is not OK for people in authority to make blanket statements to children like this. Telling boys that "boys don't like writing" is just not on.

ISNT · 16/01/2011 11:44

You are aware that children who do subjects that don't conform to stereotype can get a pretty hard time in school, I guess?

And that saying that boys don't like writing and then holding these ones up in that context, is basically driving that home. It might even have discouraged those boys from doing more writing as they have been told in front of everyone that they are doing something that is not masculine.

Your assumptions about how children behave are not true across the board. Some children will strive, others when told they are doing something that is not the norm for their "type" will stop doing it, some will use the information as a cue to start picking on others.

chibi · 16/01/2011 11:47

Jeezy is this how children are inspired- ' well done you for succeeding, as people like you fail at this normally/are not good at it.'

Please explain very simply why this is to be much preffered over just saying 'well done you'?

ISNT · 16/01/2011 12:04

I think that being told you won't like something is worse than being told you won't be able to do it. If someone says you won't be able to do something/it's really difficult, some people will react by proving them wrong by doing it. (Not all people, obviously, some will decide not to try).

If you're told that you won't like something, you won't enjoy it, then why try it?

If a friend told me that a certain activity was boring and rubbish, I would not feel inclined to rush out and give it a go.

mrz · 16/01/2011 12:23

The head didn't say that though, it's not what happened.
were you there?
You are aware that children who do subjects that don't conform to stereotype can get a pretty hard time in school, I guess
Did you have a bad time for not conforming? My experience is that those who don't fit stereotypes are a bit of a hero

chibi none of us know exactly what the head said I'm sure the OP didn't report word for word what was said and as the OP already has issues with the head perhaps just perhaps their perspective is affected.

Actually ISN'T if someone said to me you won't be able to do that because you are a girl I would damn well prove them wrong...

ISNT · 16/01/2011 12:34

mrz I wasn't there but I have read the OP. She said that the head told the assembly that boys didn't like writing. She was surprised enough by what the head to post this thread, and then has taken action by writing to the head and teh governers. She was there and thought it was way out of line, but presumably you know better?

I didn't conform to stereotypes, fortunately I was at a very academic single sex school, and we were encouraged to do whatever we wanted. There was no suggestion that there were subjects that girls should like, or should not like. Having spoken to friends at mixed schools, and read threads on here, it is the case that many girls did not feel that sciences/maths were "for them" due to the messages they were given from various sources.

I think you are naive to think that everyone, when told they will be bad at something and won't enjoy it, will react by proving the person wrong. Some people react like that, some don't. If it is your aim to filter out the different personality types, aiming the ones who are like you for success at the cost of crushing the spirits and opportunities of others, then that is one approach. I prefer to take an approach which encourages all children to have a go and do their best.

mrz · 16/01/2011 12:41

No I don't know exactly what was said how it was said or the full context because all we have is a simple statement from the OP who has in the same post stated the head is a disaster area on many levels
sometimes we hear what we want or expect to hear

Well I attended a mixed Grammar school where the head told me girls didn't normally do A level maths so I did 2 Maths A levels - pure and applied to prove him wrong

chibi · 16/01/2011 12:45

why is this better than 'well done'?

for every child who hears 'peopple like you can't do/don't do x' and thinks 'ooh i'll show you' there will be others who think 'ok fair enough'

do you feel that girls' uptake of STEM subjects has been improved because people have been telling them 'girls can't do science/technology/maths'

if you think that this message has led to the increase in girls taking these subjects, why was there no such increase inn the 40s and 50s when that message was far more prevalent than now?

mrz · 16/01/2011 12:49

I have I said that it is better than "well done" or worse than "well done"?

What I am saying is we don't know how it was said or exactly what was said ... "some people think boys don't like writing but these three prove that is not true ... look at their fantastic writing ... well done!"

chibi · 16/01/2011 12:52

but that isn't even remotely what the head was reported as saying

we can only really discuss the comment as reported

discussing what it might have been is nonsense

ISNT · 16/01/2011 12:52

So your argument is that in order to drive up standards and counteract stereotypes, all children should be told that they can't do things? Don't you see that while this approach will be fine for a minority with one personality type, it will greatly restrict the opportunities for people who have different personalities?

What happened to all of the other girls in your year who were told they couldn't do A-levels? Were you the only girl who did them? Do you think that more girls did a-levels in your year, than in subsequent years when it was accepted as a norm that girls did a-levels?

Don't you see that a lot of children, when told they can't do something, will simply not do it?

Whereas if you just give all children an opportunity to do everything, and encourage them, they will find out for themselves what they enjoy and what they are good at.

Why do children need to have preconceptions based on their sex, about what subjects they will enjoy and which they won't? It seems like a terrible idea to me.

mrz · 16/01/2011 12:58

Whereas if you just give all children an opportunity to do everything, and encourage them, they will find out for themselves what they enjoy and what they are good at.

well obviously the school is giving all children an opportunity to do everything as attested by the boys in assembly and encouraging them by having an assembly to celebrate success

ISNT · 16/01/2011 13:01

mrz how many girls in your year took a-levels?

do you think this number is less or more than in later years when it was accepted that girls take a-levels?

mrz · 16/01/2011 13:04

I don't know the exact figures but the majority of girls in my year took A levels ISN'T. At the school I attended the message was very clear that ALL pupils were destined for university

ISNT · 16/01/2011 13:11

Apologies I misread your post, I thought it said that your school told you that girls didn't normally do A-Levels.

I have a friend who went to a school where the girls did a secretarial course at the end. One girl decided she wanted to do a-levels and she went down the road to the boys school to take them. All the other girls did the secretarial course.

Please can you explain in what way this is positive.

The girls were told they were not expected to do A-levels as they were girls, and they should do secretarial.
One girl (the MRZ of the school) decided to do a-levels and presumably had a bit of a fight to do them and had to go away to a different school, which can't have been easy.
All the other girls did a secretarial course.

Where are the positives in this situation?

ISNT · 16/01/2011 13:15

I would also point out that your situation "the head told me girls didn't normally do A level maths" is different to this in the OP.

You were told that girls don't normally do maths - that implies to me not that girls can't do maths, or that they won't like maths, but that it is unusual for girls to do maths. It certainly did used to be unusual for girls to do maths - so depending on how he said it, it could have come across in a number of ways, from factual to positiev and encouraging.

He didn't say to you "girls don't like maths" when you first started at school. That's quite different.

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