Whats wrong with competitiveness?

[polarfox]

My DS is not achieving greatly on the academic front- he's bright but sadly not interested, it may change in the future, doesnt really matter if it doesnt either.

However he is gifted in sports, a natural. He excels in many sports and really enjoys them, so I take him to various clubs.

However, his primary (and most others in the vicinity, from what I gather) do not encourage competitions, in any type or form - rather they do but they all win( Sports Day is always a fiasco with team games that are just laughable!!), so he nevers gets his recognition , which is crucial really for his self confidence at school.

Similarly, they don't seem to focus on any academic competitiveness for the achievers on the academic front.

It's all so strange, sort of unreal- kids need to know what they genuinely good at, how to win gracefully, lose gracefully, what they need to work ay etc..

How did it all come to this? Do you think it will change?

we've had a few thread about this topic I recall. I don't really understand why competitiveness was removed from sport. I think there is a place for non-threatening in the sense of non-competitive sport to encourage those dc not naturally gifted for it to still take pleasure in physical activity. Howver I think there is probably still a place for some competitive outlet for primary school children who are talented at sport, otherwise where is the motivation for those to pursue it?

I feel for you - DD's last school was like that. Very PC, didn't want to reward winners, fiasco of a Sports Day.

I don't know why, exactly, things became like this. It's certainly not true in private schools where there's often a strong sense of competition. I suppose it's based on a feeling that it's not fair on those who don't excel at anything. But then, very few children don't excel at something, whether it be sport, academics, kindness, art, effort....

Some state schools are still quite competitive. DD moved schools over the summer and her new school is certainly more into recognising achievements. It's a joy

It did cross my mind if private schools are better in that respect; I take you point rockin and its a shame as I like the local state schools as my children get to interact with people from a cross section of backgrounds (I went to a private boarding school, so I missed out and hence value that make up of state schools)

How do I find out which state schools are more competitive? Even Ofsted doesnt dare rate them in that field (it would be too embarrasing for the nation if they did!!!).
Is it word of mouth?
Most schools are good at giving you the "talk" but few deliver what they say?

Go along to Sports Day and watch! We have team races ( the school is divided into "houses" and each house is desperate to win!) but we also have individual races too. It gives those children who are perhaps not academic but are fast the chance to shine! ( Our individual races are pure "flat" races, the fastest person wins We also have parents races ( the mums are SO competitive it's untrue, some turn up in trainers just so they can have a go) and even the nursery children get to have a turn! There is nothing wrong with healthy competition as long as those that aren't fleet of foot feel as supported and encouraged for the efforts they put in as our less academic children do in lessons.

How old is DS?

Our school is almost entirely non-competitive in before yr3. From yr 3 there is selection for A teams (everyone gets a chance in the other teams) and the children do a fully competitive sports day. There are both extension sports clubs by invitation, and additional sports on first-come-first-served (rotated termly or half-termly if limited numbers).

It does require differentiation by staff, and attention to all abilities. Naked competitiveness can be damaging to the less natural talented if your aim is to have everyone enjoying it and being active.

Why does a child need to "win" to have self confidence?

Why can't he just be told he's good at sport, and praised for that (without being compared to other children)?

I was very academic at school. I knew I was doing well because I got good marks, not because I was compared with other children.

I think it's important for children to be told what they are doing well at (and indeed what they need to work on) - but not by comparison with other children.

I can see how that might work with field events, but how would you "mark" track events? Or would they not be oart of the sports curriculum?

What about team games? Would it be all training and no matches?

Or if they were excluded too, what would be in the sports curriculum?

Sports and classroom subjects are not the same - performance is not private, unlike the written word.

omino he is 6.

I was rubbish at sport, but top grade at academics; all my awards were academic and other kids used to get sports, or art, or languages. There are countless opportunities for everyone, and everyone had a strong point at something, which is what nature intends.

I think comparison (done in a healthy way) is good because it teaches you that we all are indeed good at different things, which is a very valid lesson for life.

I find it wrong that they all think they are equally good at everything, as there are many pitfalls in that.

My other son, who is like me rubbish at sport but doing so well academically, announced to me 2 weeks ago that he was picked to represent school in some match across the county. I was so proud... Then by chance I found out he has picked at random (name out of a hat!!)- my pride shrunk!! Why? Hand on heart he is not good at this sort of thing- others are- let them shine; why shield them from competition: send the truly best one.. So my sport-gifted son may not get chance to shine in this event, as school chooses out of a hat, so that kids feelings don't get touched? I can't see how that is healthy.

DDs primary seemed to get the balance right.
They all participated in team games at school. They were all encouraged to join the various clubs regardless of ability. They all participated in inter-house team games and sports day events. The really talented athletes/swimmers etc competed locally, regionally and even nationally.

My DD isn't athletic but she enjoyed sports, both participating and supporting her friends.

They had academic prizes too, some for attainment and some for effort.

At assemblies, kids would be presented with medals, certificates etc won both in and out of school (if they wanted) - everything from 10m swimming certificate up. Yr 6s would present sports reports not just of victories - celebrating the 'taking part' as well as the winning.

I'm sure it takes more effort but the balance seemed right.

I agree with minipie - as a kid I knew I was good at academic stuff, but also knew that it was extreme bad manners to be seen to be so. I certainly didn't need awards to make me feel good about it :) Similarly as a long distance swimmer/runner I wanted to do better compared to my own previous achievements (good thing in that case as there were never any mile plus swimming races in the school gala, funnily enough . . .).

I'd definitely agree with the principle of competitive sports events available for all children to take part if they wish to do so, but no compulsion. Of course all children should be obliged to join in with PE, but I don't see any problem with general games lessons being non-competitive, surely the last thing we want to do is to put off children from exercise just because they aren't natural sportspeople.

I think it would really help my dd2 (aged 6)if there was more open acknowledgment to her that she was doing well academically. She is a perfectionist and I think takes her big sisters slightly mean comments and little jibes too much to heart and has quite low self esteem, despite our best efforts. She is actually doing very well academically - wouldn't surprise me if she was top of the class in all academic areas and yet I think she has a low opinion of herself. I know wisdom suggests children shouldn't base their self esteem on stuff like academic prowess but when I think how her little ego would inflate if her teacher actually told her just how good she is. The school not telling her doesn't make her any less competitive, it just leaves her left to judge her success by the very unreliable indicator of what her her big sister can do.

camicaze, I feel for your DD in having a low opinion of herself, but I don't think it is up to her school to constantly be bolstering her ego.

I have an academic DD2 who is also undermined by her older sister at times (green-eyed monster, pure and simple) and the way my DH and I deal with this is to say that they are very different people with different strengths and weaknesses. I think you need to praise your DDs at home.

It does seem wrong to take all the competition out, there is room for competitive and non-competitive sport.

Do you have out of school groups at which your ds could have a chance to shine? At least around here there are many more groups and clubs for sport than you'd ever see for cerebral pastimes.

DD's school (state primary) is very competitive. They have a traditional sports day with assorted races, they enter orchestral competitions (and win), they enter inter school cross country competitions, and they still do SATS tests - why? Because the school is now in the top 100 primary schools in the UK and having achieved that they want to stay there.

'How did it all come to this? Do you think it will change?'

It came to this because competition is against the ethos of progressives. To them, everyone is a winner, and it doesn't do to have losers. It will change when society recognises progressives for what they are.

Lovecheese - for goodness sake, what do you take me for? - of course I praise my dds. Of course I tell them they are special, have their own strengths and bend over backwards to bolster dd2s (and dd1s) self esteem in any way I can think of. It hasn't solved the problem. I don't suppose I actually think acknowledging dd2's strengths at school would do much for her perfectionism. I was just musing as I read the thread that it might give her self esteem a bit of a boost to be told thats shes really good at her academic work - because she is. I tell my dd2, till I'm blue in the face that she is wonderful, what she does is wonderful but she often doesn't choose to belive me- i'm guessing she chooses to believe her sister and the comparisons she draws with her sister despite my best efforts to discourage that comparison.
The discussion here is about praising achievement at school. I think on balance it would be a good idea for my daughter if her achievements were acknowledged and praised more at school.

He will get the recognition in a year or two - everyone knows who's is good at football in the playground. Just wait it out, he can join teams for competition if it isn't there in school.

agree with minipie. children don't need to "win" to know they are good at something. nor do they need praise IMO.
they know when they have put effort in and when it has resulted in something good. they don't need us telling them that.

i dislike competition because it teaches children that they are only worthwhile as long as they are the "winner"

that all those who tried their hardest and gave it their all are still failures because they didn't get 1st place.
those who aren't very good soon realise there is no point even trying

those who ARE good end up believing their self-worth lies in always winning.

see here and here and www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/tcooa.htmhere

oops, sorry... here is the last one

"I dislike competition because it teaches children that they are only worthwhile as long as they are the "winner""

It cuts both ways though. A child who always does well and never gets praised will stop trying. This has happened to DD before.

There's also the 'too much praise' culture ... at my dc's old school, the kids got praised to the skies for really mediocre stuff with the end result that there was no incentive to try their best - why bother when any old cr*p was greeted with a gushing "that was amazing and wonderful" from the head

they did that choosing sports teams out of a hat thing too .. with the result that all the sports teams got thrashed every time they entered an event (which didn't happen too often) - cue completely demoralised kids coming home and baffled kids who were actually really good at the sport in question left at school

I agree with minipie.

If a competative environment is so important to you then there will be plenty of out of school clubs that can offer it.

Neither of my dc's are sporty, but both are very academic. There are no public (ie - all the parents watchin)events that celebrate an academic child, so I don't see why schools should offer that to sporty children.

One of my dc's has AS, he is completely un cooridinated and quite a slow runner, I don't see why he should be humiliated in front of lots of people for coming last in every race so that someone elses sporty child can shine. Simelarly, I don't think there should be an ocassion where there are lots of people watching an unacademic child be made to feel thick because s/he can't answer all the general knowledge questions that my child would be able to shine at.

I think the team sports days are more about avoiding negative feelings for some children than denying other children positive feelings. And they all get a huge benefit out of being part of a team and cheering eachother on, supporting eachother etc. It's lovely to see the oldest children helping the youngest children because they are all the same house colour or whatever, and I disagree that it has to be a fiasco. Ours really isn't, the children really enjoy it, and if yours is a fiasco it's probably more down to bad planning than a lack of individual competitiveness.

I agree with thisIsYesterday. It's really, really important to value effort rather than achievement.

basildon you are so right about too much praise for ..mediocre things, and that's so counterproductive. Then when they should be praising they don't wrapped up in their progressives ethos as claig said.

Praise and reward for whatever, sport/academics/ethos/art etc but when it is over and above the average.

At the end of the day isn't that what happens into adulthood? And to answer another point, we adults also know what we are good at- but don't we strive for recognition (promotion/bonus/award) as a tangible recognition when we rise above a standar?.

Effort is great and needs to be encouraged, and kids should be motivated. But we need to also motivate achievers and inspire, and this is where the shortfall seems to be.

Bunbaker "It cuts both ways though. A child who always does well and never gets praised will stop trying. This has happened to DD before."

I think if that happens you need to think hard about why she only sees the effort as worthwhile if she receives praise. Surely she should realise that the value of her effort is in the benefit to herself, if that makes sense.

If she enters the workplace (or university, come to that) only performing when praised, I think she may get a rude shock.