Whats wrong with competitiveness?

[polarfox]

My DS is not achieving greatly on the academic front- he's bright but sadly not interested, it may change in the future, doesnt really matter if it doesnt either.

However he is gifted in sports, a natural. He excels in many sports and really enjoys them, so I take him to various clubs.

However, his primary (and most others in the vicinity, from what I gather) do not encourage competitions, in any type or form - rather they do but they all win( Sports Day is always a fiasco with team games that are just laughable!!), so he nevers gets his recognition , which is crucial really for his self confidence at school.

Similarly, they don't seem to focus on any academic competitiveness for the achievers on the academic front.

It's all so strange, sort of unreal- kids need to know what they genuinely good at, how to win gracefully, lose gracefully, what they need to work ay etc..

How did it all come to this? Do you think it will change?

I don't think my children's schools tell the other children in the class the marks everyone gets but chidlren if they haev half a brain know who is bright and who isn't and plenty of them will choose to share their marks.

Loads of disabled people are very competitive - para olympics and lots of other things. Just because you're disabled doesn't mean you can't be the best in the UK at all kinds of things. David Cameron's father did pretty well despite his leg problems and there are countless other examples - David Blunkett etc etc.

Most schools have some races which everyone knows are not the real deal where all the children have a chance and others where the real runners run and it's good to have both. Some of my children are more sporty than others. It's pretty clear at school who is and who isn't and it's not an issue as hopefully they all have some things they are good at.

Riven thats awful - how could a parents complain - the school sounds like it did just right.
There should be competition - but also learning about cooperation and helping everyone to be involved. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

I agree with you bambi and xenia.

I just feel that in our overprotective environment we fear failure so much, that we actually stop seeking individual kids talents, be it art/music/sport..
That is the real damage- children never finding out what it is they are good at; and the real sad thing is they are all good at something..
Instead we praise mediocricy, and if the kids realise that what role models are we after all? And what inspirations do we instill to them then?

So are we saying some (hopefully not all) state schools dumb down and private schools on the whole do have a bit more competition in more areas so children haev something they know they are better than others at whether that's rugby, clarinet, latin, stamp collecting or whatever?

No riven, sorry I may have given the wrong impression .. My children are not A star, one son is very good at sport, another is good academically, and DD bless I dont know; and thats exactly the point!! I dont know what star they are, so I cannot built on it!

And competition is not about dog eat dog, its about defining their strong points, and knowing which ones to work on! It's about learning to put that extra mile in and striving through effort, it builds character if nothing else, instead of giving up.

I hope I am not coming across as a competitive person, as I am not I think!I just think the situation has veered way the other way, and it can impact their confidence once out of primary school in a negative way.

And sadly xenia yes it does seem so. It seems private schools may not necessarily have the best teachers, but they build on the individual more and provide more weapons for later life..

Riven - that's not the point at all.

Imho, all children need to learn resilience. They need to learn that you have to put yourself out there, not to fear failure.

The best lesson I ever learned, was that if I fail, I just dust myself off and start again.
It has held me in such good stead.

riven I know what you mean. TBH the reason why I am so passionate about this is because I did fear competition and was so scared of failure, and that was because I shielded myself from it until adulthood, and I can see the pitfalls in that clearly.

I want my DC to not be scared, and that means exposure to competitiveness- I do think it does more good than harm to avoid it .. not just in the achievement sense but also in terms of resilience/appreciation of others/motivation/inspiration etc

Teenage girls know the currency of the environment in which they were brought up, whether that's the girls I saw in Iran last year or those I see around this bit of London or whatever but most come good to their core values in due course. If parents want to remove peer influence thankfully we're a country which still gives you the freedom of a home education, to send them abroad to be educated, to send them to board or good private schools, steiner, religious or whateve your ilk.

However we do children a huge disservice when we don't give them choices and pretend the world isn't how it is. No good school announces who is bottom of the class but it is worth children being aware of where they are placed so they can work harder and not grow up with rose tinted spectacles thinking employers are going to think they are wonderful when they aren't. But nor do we want them thinking because they are working class they have to be hairdressers or because they are female they will be a nurse not a leading surgeon or whatever.

Money grades and looks can make life easier in this culture. Anyone wanting to escape that though can build their own enclave where it doesn't matter or try to find a country where those things don't matter although it is hard to think of one. i was appalled by the amount of makeup in islamic countries - where was the humility of lack of artiface? Communist china was much the same - despite the Chairman M suits for all they never really achieved proper communism (not that I'm a supporter thereof anyway).

Absolutely not Riven, that would be appaling and unjust- which is why am keen to have this current spirit gone.
Only then would be people explore their talents, strive and succeed in whatever they would.
The primary school years are very formative in developing values, and school is where the peers are so schools have to work on that- there are tings we cant practically teach at home for obvious reasons..
Mine go to to a lovely, loving school which hits a lot of the boxes but this one; they should change the logo to "every child matters but they are all the same2.

And the "rose tinted spectacles" that xenia spoke of are sadly already in place. I see them thinking they are wonderful in things that they aren't, to the point of missing out where it is they are good at.

I have many friends abroad, and seriously, in no oter country do they pick out of a hat the pupils to represent them in events. God knows who benefits from that? They would shamelessly pick the person appropriate for the event- isnt that what we do in adult life?

And a lot can be done at home in ensuring children have the values which the parents want them to have too of course.

it's worth people know what helps - fat people do worse, tall people do better, regional accents often mean you earn less, if you can't write or spell that doesn't go down well with employers, dress for interviews matters etc etc.. the child at university stage can then decide I'm going to work on the bins or join the enclosed Order or a City bank or whatever but they need information in order to enable them to make those choices.

The schools mine have been to would not pick out of a hat. The children have loved (those keen on competitive sport) being on teams or in choir competitions. No wonder there aer virtually no olumpic athelets from state schools if state schools are picking representatives for teams from hats! and I know most don't anyway as my children havev competed with chidlren from state schools on occasion.

I agree with the "rose-tinted spectacles". Current teenagers seem to have pairs in abundance.

I'm not advocating a return to my day, when the average teenager crept around, cowed, with a mane of hair covering their face and was convinced they were rubbish at everything. This was me, by the way, and no-one, especially my parents, did anything to disabuse me of the notion. Looking back, I was actually quite pretty and was top in most subjects, but to display any self-confidence was seen as being conceited.

BUT - I see teens today and the culture of self-worth has got out of hand. Schools with their prizes for all ethos and the "Because I'm worth it" mantra has led to these bands of deluded teenagers seriously believing that they are going to Oxbridge or destined to win X Factor. I recently met a girl who was outraged that Jack Wills and Hollister had turned her down for a part-time job. She was overweight, not attractive at all, but had applied in the full knowledge that these stores aim to employ gods and goddesses.

I think competitiveness in schools results in lower self esteem. The children need to be taught to concentrate on themselves and their achievments not on what everyone else is doing. Children need to learn to motivate themselves and achieve for themselves not just to gain oneup on someone else. Also children who are encouraged to be competitive can have a lot of problems with jealousy because they are always comparing themselves.

Also if it is going to be encouraged, it should least be given for things like hard work, effort, resilience and enthusiasm. If one child dosnt win the cup because they are not a fast runner, no amount of competitiveness will make them win the race, if they are just not a fast runner!

Our (private) school gets it about right I feel. They all have to do all 6 sports on Sports Day - one of which is a fun relay of mixed ability so everybody has a chance of success.

After each event they get a red badge for 1st, blue badge for 2nd or yellow badge for effort or sportsmanship.

At the end there are winners - who get a sports patch to sew on - but the children with the most yellow badges also get a commendation.

On the run-up to the Sports Day they spend time in PE being coached so the less able are encouraged to do well and shown how to throw, jump to their maximum ability etc.

I think most schools do it like that, certainly that I know and most even in the very competitive schools my children have been in down play academic competitiveness and don't give out marks to the class etc but you will always get some very competitive children and some very laid back.

The aim should be (a) that they all find what they are good at whatever that might be and (b) that they understand realistically that there is competition in the world and they will need to be better than some others in some things to succeed in some areas rather than totally isolated and the real world coming later as a complete shock because their teachers and parents had told them they were Mr Wonderful when in fact they were worse than most people.

I don't agree Moonsand. Life is competitive. Kids need to understand that, while being encouraged in what they are good at and also supported at what they are not.
I'd have been fairly humiliated to receive a prize for "effort" in athletics or something else I was rubbish at. Instead, I knew what I was good at (certain subjects) and those got my attention. I knew what I was bad at (athletics, gymnastics and most things involving running) and just did what I could. I certainly didn't lie awake at night with self-esteem issues over it.

Can I cadge for advice from wise MNers?

What do you with a child who isn't actually good at any school subject? There seems to be an assumption on this thread that children who are weak academically will be good at sports or vice versa. Or have some musical or artistic talent. In short, be able to excell, or be an asset to their team, in something.

I haven't got one of those near-teens who sees the world through rose tinted spectacles: I've got one who is convinced he is rubbish at everything and there is no point in trying

I have tried out of school activities, but most of them round here are centered round physical prowess and he has a joint condition. Also very poor motor skills and struggles academically. And is not musical.

To me, the people seeing life through rose-tinted spectacles are the ones that assume that if there was only enough competition in schools, every child would have their confidence boosted. Can't see that happening to us.

Which is not actually to say that I think all competition should be banished. I do see that it is good for some children and I think that is a reason for retaining it. In balance. I just wish ds hadn't given up...

Cory - I can understand your concerns. We too had a DS who was constantly looking for his niche or his area to excel. Academics weren't his forte either as he had a number of SEN issues. He had to participate in competitive sports at school, he learnt to lose (very important IMO) and also to do his best. School were great and often gave him an organisational role eg in charge of 3rd teams cricket kit so that helped his self esteem. Within the family he had a high achieving sibling in all areas and this compounded the problem. So we had to be careful to praise effort rather than attainment. I mean real effort and not just appearing to work as I feel false praise doesn't help the situation either.

He was once asked to make a list of things he was good at and things he was bad at. The longest list was the things he was bad at...... With some assistance we were able to add extra things to the list of things he was good at. A few of these additions were met with well no one cares about that eg being polite, helpful but by linking them to school/true life situations he was able to see that they were indeed important skills or things worth being good at. I think groups such as scouts/ youth club etc are very useful to help DS such as ours as they learn to work as a team and take part in activities that are different from school and also are often made up of different children than those at school. Our DS also attended day camps and then later summer outdoor camps. Both made him more independent and gave him the chance to do new things.

Now he is a sixth former we have found he excels at outdoor activities climbing, kayaking and backpacking. This has given him more confidence and I have no doubt help him reach 'his' potential in GCSEs. There isn't a magic cure to this other than to try lots of activities and hope they "click" with one. Good luck!

Cory, What about volunteering or something akin to Duke of Edinburgh awards scheme where they can get gratification from helping others and being part of the community?

What exactly do they do in the Duke of Edingburgh, butkin? I thought that was about physical things? Are there other aspects too?

Not many areas where a 10yo can volunteer- or even a teen these days, when it's all about CRB checks.