Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

Flip

1 2

Original poster

Saying Grace before lunch at a non-church school. I'm a bit cross.

44 replies

Grockle · 03/12/2010 08:56

I deliberately chose to send DS to a community school, not one affiliated with a church. Recently, he announced that they say a prayer before lunch. When I probed a little more, he sang (with actions )

Thank you Lord for giving us food
Thank you Lord for giving us food
Thank you Lord for giving us food
Make us grateful for every plateful
Amen

Whilst I like the notion of teaching children to be grateful for what they have I am uncomfortable that they have taught DS this without my consent. I am happy for him to participate in religious things (he's a shepherd in the nativity) and I take him to visit churches etc but I make sure that he understands other beliefs as well.

Don't know why I am bothered but I am. I haven't discussed it with the school yet and don't want to make a fuss. Am I being silly about this?

OP posts:

Alibabaandthe40nappies · 03/12/2010 09:00

There is nothing wrong with saying some sort of grace before a meal, but I agree that one is a bit OTT religious for a school that has no religious affiliations.

My Grandad's favourite was 'Rub-a-dub-dub, thanks for the grub'

nonanny · 03/12/2010 09:01

I agree with you. Find out whats going on. There will be a school policy. was it a one -off? It could be the actions of one lunchtime supervisor or teaching assistant the school may not be aware is doing this. Its indoctrination.

ANTagony · 03/12/2010 09:05

Isn't it a national curriculum requirement that schools have a collective act of worship each day?

I objected at DS1's school. Some of the staff had an issue as well, it was a non affiliated school. We got around it by using the verse that starts 'Thank you for the food we eat....'

We left out the bit at the end so effectively it was a thanks to the catering staff, teachers, parents etc.

nonanny · 03/12/2010 09:10

Not in our school. I think its once a week and the foundations go once; the older ones twice to assembly. I don't think saying grace is an act of worship but it depends on your point of view. Its very odd that this is happening in a non-church school, and unless its a one-off, if you don't like it go and ask questions.

Original poster

Grockle · 03/12/2010 09:10

Collective worship and time for reflection is a requirement I think but I have never seen another school get round that by saying Grace (I'm a teacher).

I want to suggest that DS says, 'Thank you Earth' but I feel like I might be being petty and making him stand out.

I just asked DS what it means and he said 'it helps God know that you are saying thank you for the food that he gives you'

OP posts:

Original poster

Grockle · 03/12/2010 09:10

He says they say it every day

OP posts:

Lonnie · 03/12/2010 09:58

I would be cross too. You can off course tell them that your child will not take part of it (religious requirement or not worship is a personal thing and you are allowed to opt out)

What would worry me with this is that they are assuming all children in the school are of chatolic or protestant orgin. That is not all inclusive and as far as I have understood it should be.

Our children are in a C of E school it was a complex choice for my dh and I to make when we moved down here as we do not agree with religion and scholing being mixed. However it was the only school with a space for all 3 kids and in the end we went with it deciding we could counter act anything that has gone too far. As it is we havent found it was overly done so for example they do not say grace before each meal (have a weekly worship session)

piscesmoon · 03/12/2010 10:05

It isn't usual in a non faith school but England doesn't have any secular state schools-the community school is non denominational-maybe the Head is religious.

Original poster

Grockle · 03/12/2010 10:51

The school is predominantly white with a few Indian children. There are LOADS of very good church schools round here where most of the churchgoers I know send their children. Perhaps you are right and the Head is religious.

I went to a church school and we never said grace so I'm bemused. DS and I just talked about it and he said, 'Well, I believe in God, so I'm going to say thank you to him'

I think I'll have a chat with his teacher or head at some point.

OP posts:

piscesmoon · 03/12/2010 10:58

I think it is very much up to the Head-have a chat-see what other parents think.

RockinRobinBird · 03/12/2010 11:21

I see why you're cross but your last post makes it tricky. If your son says he believes in God and wants to say thank you to him, I don't think you have a case. Now I know what children are and next week he may decide he doesn't believe in God anymore, but while he says he does, what can you do about it? He presumably knows that you don't and has made his own mind up. If you try to get him to stop then you are doing what you're accusing the school of doing.

If he hadn't said that it would be easy to have a word with them.

Original poster

Grockle · 03/12/2010 12:10

He also believes in aliens and monsters. I'm not trying to get him to stop. He can believe what he wants to. But since he is 5 and loves school, he is heavily influenced by what they tell him and I object to him being told that God provides the food. Being told that some people believe that God provides food would be fine.

When questioned 'who is God' he has no idea of the Christian sense. We talk a lot about what God means to us but school is far more influential at the moment.

OP posts:

FreudianFoxSquishedByAPouffe · 03/12/2010 12:32

I don't see the problem really, I'm an atheist but am more than happy to say grace. I guess I'd prefer a secular version of it but overall I think that being thankful for food is a good thing.

Original poster

Grockle · 03/12/2010 12:49

I agree it is a good thing to be thankful for food and I have no objection to grace as such - it's the religiousness of the one he says and his lack of understanding that bothers me.

I am going to Google and find something that I feel more comfortable with and we'll say our own grace at home.

OP posts:

Original poster

Grockle · 03/12/2010 12:51

I think I'm put out because I feel like he's being preached to and being told to say and what to believe when he should be being told about lots of things and left to make up his own mind.

OP posts:

thebelletolls · 03/12/2010 13:05

Grockle - You can't seriously compare God with aliens and monsters. Even if you don't believe. I had a faith from a very young age like your son but couldn't have described this in words. I still can't. (My parents weren't religious)

BTW don't want to get into a discussion about this at all - just to say that i'd allow him to go with the flow at school. There is no harm being done - he'll believe what he wants to. We're aren't Christians but my understanding is that God is non-denominational.

FreudianFoxSquishedByAPouffe · 03/12/2010 14:37

My DH feels a bit like you grockle. He's not too keen on the dc going to Sunday school, or if the secular school they'll be attending does prayers etc. I think it wouldve bothered me more a few years ago as I was more of an active atheist IYSWIM? But I've 'outgrown' it I think. I don't mean that in a patronising way, and I do think it's a valid thing to be annoyed or worried about, BUT now looking back at my own childhood (and my stepchildrens' too) I just don't see any reason to actually get worked up over it. We said prayers, I went to Sunday school sometimes, we were taught about God in a matter-of-fact way... It hasn't brainwashed me. I have my own beliefs, and a very strong moral code which was probably influenced by church despite me not actually believing in God. I think it can't do any harm to be exposed to this, they still have you to 'balance it out' - "yes, lots of people believe in God, I don't personally, and it's up to you what beliefs you have" etc :)

Original poster

Grockle · 03/12/2010 15:30

I wasn't comparing God to aliens and didn't mean to cause offence. I was just saying that 5 yr olds believe all sorts of things. As a teacher, I am very careful to say 'some people believe...' when talking with children and make sure I don't impose my views on them. I'm just irritated because I feel strongly that if a non-religious school is going to teach children something like this, they should inform parents.

I'll stop worrying about it and have some mulled wine.

Thank you all

OP posts:

whomovedmychocolate · 03/12/2010 15:34

My sympathies. They also do a preschool sodding prayer at the community school we send DD. We are not happy about it. May I suggest you pop over to www.richarddawkins.net where you will find a lot of support for your PoV or the National Secular Society www.nss.org.uk for information on what you can do about it on a practical level. :)

AnnieOnAMapleLeaf · 03/12/2010 15:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

hocuspontas · 03/12/2010 16:07

My sympathies as well. You can avoid church schools if you don't want your child practising religion but you could end up at a secular school which practises just as much (or more) but there's no way to tell until it's too late!

RockinRobinBird · 03/12/2010 17:07

I do see your point, I wasn't trying to be awkward :) For the record I'm Catholic so obviously in favour of faith schools. But that doesn't mean that I don't find it absurd that real secular schools seem to be so thin on the ground. If you choose a faith/church school, great. But if you don't you should be able to be confident that they aren't teaching your child what you don't want.

SuePurblybiltByElves · 03/12/2010 17:08

I would be cross for the pure shite that
is "make us grateful for every plateful".
Vom.

Talkinpeace · 03/12/2010 17:45

DD went to and DS is at a CofE Primary.
I went to CofE right through to 18.
"Our god is a great big god" got subverted into "Our digger is a great big digger" ;
boys preferred it. Head seethed. DD is G&T for RE and a committed atheist. DS argues the evidence for Jesus with his teacher (whose husband is a lay preacher).
I let it all wash past.
People either grow out of religion as their brains mature or they don't.

Takver · 03/12/2010 17:59

DD goes to a community (non church) school. They pray three times a day (Lords prayer in the morning, Grace at lunchtime, prayer at going home time).

Not only that, but dd was recently complaining about this, and the amount of time they spend on religion.

I said it could be worse, its useful to know bible stories etc, and added that in some schools in America they taught that the world was made in 7 days - her response was that 'well they teach us that too!'.

On further probing, it appears that as well as studying the Genesis story, the teacher taking assembly recently commented re. the world being made in 7 days that 'if the big bang was true, how would you get seasons, and things like that'. I was .

So, don't assume that because it is not a church school, they won't be teaching full on Christianity!

Flip

1 2