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Primary education

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Original poster

Saying Grace before lunch at a non-church school. I'm a bit cross.

44 replies

Grockle · 03/12/2010 08:56

I deliberately chose to send DS to a community school, not one affiliated with a church. Recently, he announced that they say a prayer before lunch. When I probed a little more, he sang (with actions Grin)

Thank you Lord for giving us food
Thank you Lord for giving us food
Thank you Lord for giving us food
Make us grateful for every plateful
Amen

Whilst I like the notion of teaching children to be grateful for what they have I am uncomfortable that they have taught DS this without my consent. I am happy for him to participate in religious things (he's a shepherd in the nativity) and I take him to visit churches etc but I make sure that he understands other beliefs as well.

Don't know why I am bothered but I am. I haven't discussed it with the school yet and don't want to make a fuss. Am I being silly about this?

OP posts:
richmal · 03/12/2010 18:32

I just asked my dd. Silly me for asuming that a non affiliated school would not say grace. I even once enquired about taking her out of assembly but decided against it as I did not want her sitting alone outside. The fact that they also said grace was never mentioned.

One thing they did promise, however, was that they would stress in their teaching that religion is a belief, not a fact. I have checked with dd and they are doing this. May I sugest this may be a more successful angle to persue.

There is no such thing as a secular school in this contry. Only schools of different religions have ever used the opt out claus in the legal requiremnt to practise Christianity.

richmal · 03/12/2010 18:38

oops -country -clause

Talkinpeace · 03/12/2010 19:03

Flip side of it.
The UK is one of the few developed countries where the practice of worship is compulsory in state schools. In the USA, France, Canada, Germany etc it is illegal.
And yet the UK has one of the highest levels of secularism in the world.
Familiarity breeds contempt. I totally support my kids learning about christianity. Know your enemy.
Also, as per the recent articles in New Scientist, religion is a great stopgap for those not intellectual enough to understand the world.
Fine, let them, but for gods sake make them read something other than the Daily Mail Xmas Shock

Takver · 03/12/2010 19:06

That is very true, talkinpeace. I do also think that it is useful (as I said to dd) to know the bible stories, the Lord's Prayer, etc. just as it is useful to know the Greek Myths, so primary school Christianity can come in helpful.

PaisleyLeaf · 03/12/2010 19:07

Don't they have to tick that 'worship' box somehow?
Is it somehow worse for you that they're having their prayer at a mealtime rather than morning assembly?

minimathsmouse · 03/12/2010 22:35

Op mentions that her son says he believes in god and likes to say the prayer. A prayer at lunch time is hardly indoctrination.

My fathers family is jewish, he is christian, I am rather more jewish than pleases my father and my children like to go to special children's events at the church. They will make up their own minds but when they do they will have lots of experiences and evidence to draw upon.

Its really a silly thing to get hung up on. As long as Op gives her son a choice and a balanced view at home, he will be fine.

Himalaya · 05/12/2010 23:04

I know that community schools have to by law do a daily act of communal worship. But i would be a bit disturbed by this too.

somehow it feels like linking the prayer to the food makes it more real and serious, with an expectation that children will believe and partipate, rather than a traditional pious word in assembly where all the have to do is take a moment of quiet reflection. Also i wonder if it seems like they are being taught that praying is something that people should do before eating. Like handwashing.

on the other hand it might just be a convienient way for the school to do the daily worship bit for Ofsted, and not a sign of a seriously religious culture at the school (at least they don't make them pray to Jesus)

I wouldn't go in with all guns blazing, specially since yr child doesn't seem bothered, but would try to find out a bit more about the schools overall approach and policy to religion.

DisparityCausesInstability · 05/12/2010 23:37

I'd find it a bit creepy - would prefer they just said God, which is fairly vague, I mean how many different Gods are suppose to exist Wink - references to the "Lord" are a bit odd, maybe I'm being picky....but I suppose lots of odd religious stuff finds its way into everyday life.

Does saying grace before meals actually make you feel grateful? - it was just a rhyme we were encouraged to say quickly before eating at school dinners (nobody bothered with packed lunches) - I never gave it a moment's thought, my mind was focusing on what we were having for lunch..

LittlePushka · 05/12/2010 23:55

OP, Why would you not want you LO to be grateful for the food he has? The sentiment is about gratitude

We teach them to say thank you for things they receive - hell, we get them to write to request things and write to say thank you for things from "Father Christmas"...

  • and I agree with minimathsmouse - he will work out a balance.

It seems odd (to me) to get hung up on a grace of gratitude but yet not so about a nativity which proclaims angels and a virgin birth.

Himalaya · 06/12/2010 07:25

I don't think the OP was worried about the sentiment of feeling thankful (as she said - couldn't they say thanks to the earth...) it was the bit about comminicating with and being thankful to 'the Lord' which seems inappropriate outside of a church school.

Personally I hope they could teach kids to be thankful to the dinnerladies, and the parents who made the packed lunches.

DisparityCausesInstability · 06/12/2010 08:08

"Personally I hope they could teach kids to be thankful to the dinnerladies, and the parents who made the packed lunches."

Me too!

bitsyandbetty · 06/12/2010 12:41

The secular schools near us are still considered basically Christian. I think it is a fallacy that only church schools are religious. The local vicar is on the board for the local community school. The local primary school also runs a Jesus and me group. My kids go to the nearby Catholic school and I do think it is less religious than the local secular school. It was the same when I was at school going from a catholic primary to secular secondary, there was far more worship at the latter.

Original poster
Grockle · 06/12/2010 21:27

Thank you for all your responses.

I'm not going anywhere with guns blazing, nor am I upset about my son being taught to be grateful for his food.

I still feel very uncomfortable with my 5 yr old being told to pray to (and believe in) an idea of a God that I do not believe in.I shall stew for a but before plucking up the courage to discuss it with the school. Had I been informed, I would not be nearly so bothered.

OP posts:
me1984 · 06/12/2010 22:33

i think that is foursing a belife on a child, not everyone belives in a God. I teach my daughter about all religons, so she can make her on mind up. i wouldnt be very happy with a prayer before lunch as that in my eyes is forsing them to chose some thing they dont fully understand. i do not shelter my daughter from anything (to a degree) expeshily religon. but then if all the other kids were doing it i wouldnt want mine to feel left out. its a tough one, but the school should have consulted perents before such a routine was put in place! (sorry if there is any spelling mistakes!!)

Himalaya · 06/12/2010 23:49

hehe Grockle...I didn't really mean to accuse you of going into school with all guns blazing - it would be my first reaction on hearing this, but then like you hopefully i'd stew for a bit, collect my thoughts and go in for a calm chat.

me1984 · 07/12/2010 12:40

let us all know what happendeds when you do get down the school to discuss it! dont forget its your kid and they have to respect your pint of view. if they dont get schools and familys inloved they ill soon take you seriously.x

Changebagsandgladrags · 07/12/2010 13:22

We sent DS to a non-church school. In the joining information there was a form you filled in if you didn't want them to take part in collective prayer sessions.

I think community schools are still 'christian' aren't they? They just don't teach it as much as church schools do.

Original poster
Grockle · 07/12/2010 22:28

I am checking with an RE advisor friend what the rules are. Will see what they say before I do anything. DS is happy and that's the main thing. Thanks for all your input.

OP posts:
Original poster
Grockle · 16/12/2010 19:21

Right, I have talked with the teacher and head and it seems they DID say Grace but have changed their policy recently to have a moment of quiet reflection where the children can say their own thank yous in their heads. I asked DS what he says in his moment of quiet reflection and he said "Nothing, I just think about my lunch. But when I've finished, I say 'Thank you Lord for giving us food..." Grin

OP posts:
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