State education system, is it broken?

[minimathsmouse]

I believe the wheels have fallen off the state education system. You might not agree but I have read so many posts here from parents who have had and are still having huge problems with their child's school. Many people seem to have worries about standards of teaching, clashes of ideology and problems with making up the deficit with tutors and home study. Horrendous SEN provission, huge class sizes, lack of provision for able pupils, the list goes on. It is truely depressing to think so many children are not receiving the education they deserve.

How many people believe the whole system has failed? Are falling standards only due to poor teaching or wider problems that are not being addressed within the system?

My caps went. Now they're back. Sorry if that makes it difficult to read.

One in every five primary school children leaves without basic literacy and numeracy. Student teachers can't spell or count. CBI complains about companies having to give remedies arithmetic and spelling lessons to school leavers.

Critical learning age for basic language and number skills is three to seven.

It's like a whole argument, enveloped in cogency and beribboned with irrefutable logic, all by itself.

TBH I am not sure the wheels were ever there. We get overly nostalgic about the past.

I'm afraid I don't think you will reach the educationally deprived children in the way you have so far described, though, Appletrees - I need a more clear argument from you as to how you would propose to teach literacy and maths before I could agree to what you propose. How detailed in the technical sense would the teaching of grammar actually be, for example? How early on would times tables have to be learned and by what method if not just learning by rote? (I think we are all agreed, after all, that the educationally deprived have extremely limited skills in literacy and numeracy, amongst other things, so we are also all agreed that the raising of literacy and numeracy standards is extremely important. Preferably this would be done in a way that wouldn't result in the educationally deprived not turning up for school in the first place, though).

"Critical learning age for basic language and number skills is three to seven"

In Germany many children don't start school until they are well over six or even seven, having done no literacy or numeracy at all - they still manage to learn both.

Actually, we aren't all agreed on literacy or numeracy, I guess - I've heard it argued that we don't need mental arithmetic any more because we have computers... Let's just say that I agree that literacy and numeracy skills are useful, but that I don't think your teaching methods sound useful.

Nothing but naysayers. That nostalgia criticism is a barrel scrape to be sure.

Rabbit, first you would have to agree it's a priority and the current system isn't working. And explain what you would do.

I have been pretty graphic and full on. You suspect something vaguely right wing and old fashioned which toy push against in a knee jerk way. And on top of it all, you underestimate children. Expect failure and that is what you will achieve.

Appletrees - our situation is perhaps an interesting test of the things you have been saying.

Our DSs go to a private Prep but annoyingly it follows slavishly the NC and the 'modern' teaching methods you have criticised. What you said here described our DSs Prep beautifully.

"So bad spelling should not be ignored because it's a lovely Roman story. Bad spelling should be the focus and the story secondary. I know this is reactionary but the current system is not working.

There is no way that a half term project on the environment contributes in ANY WAY to their basic learning, or these history days that take up vast amounts of the day and prep time, and waste enormous amounts of parental voluntary time. Children can play and watch TV at home. Teachers should assume that the school time is the only educational time available to the child and make that time work as hard as possible. "

The point I am making is this is not a 'state school' problem it is a NC and modern teaching method problem. It drives me and DW round the bend as we both went to very ordinary state Primary schools using the old fashioned mehods - we know it worked!

Many good private Prep schools do avoid NC and use the old fashioned traditional teaching methods for the very reasons you describe. Sadly not in my DSs Prep and we have had arguements with the Head about it and we are taking them out next year to put them in a school with more traditional methods.

Yes beta I loathe the bc and this is my big beef.

Sorry but who mentioned Germany? They can start from five and a half and primary is very very heavily focussed on the three r's with sport and music.

In fact iirc Germany streams children in diff schools across three or four levels. Future decided at eleven or something like that.

Nc not bc

Chuffin' phonio

Appletrees, I agree with most of what you are saying, but with a few caveats:

If your topic is Romans and you are embedding everything (literacy, numeracy etc.) into that topic, then of course in a piece of writing spelling should be very important. However, so should structure (i.e. beginning, middle, end), richness of language (use of connective, adverbs/adjectives) and creativity in terms of plotting. All those features will encourage a child to achieve where it matters later on in their school life, so if those elements are there early on, they should be acknowledged.

I do worry that environment is a really big factor and I don't have a quick fix - and it is unfair to expect state schools to pick up after parents who can't manage the basics of toileting, conversation and socialisation. My girls' school has a very, very mixed intake and some of the parents have to be seen to be believed - if they are feral, how can their children not be? Would your proposed school fix this, and if so how?

Lastly, I do agree that some old-fashioned methods work. Both my DDs are in state schools which use such methods - learning by rote, if handled well, is a useful tool. DD1 is learning mental maths, finding it both a struggle and a challenge, but she understands the need for it and every week that we go shopping together I can tell her to the nearest £3 what our shopping is going to cost. She has taken to looking at the receipt and has started checking it for mistakes, bless her! No refunds yet, though. I'm annoyed that her school (and schools generally) in the UK don't seem to want to extend the rote learning to the learning of foreign languages though. DD is learning French, but it all seems to be phrasebook stuff - no-one is teaching her French grammar, irregular verbs or anything, there's none of the stuff I did at school so she can't build on the vocab that she has - the structure just isn't there. Well, perhaps I'll have to do it myself...

I agree that literacy and numeracy skills are a priority and many schools treat them as a priority. I just don't see the current system failing in the schools in which I have experience. I also believe that a primary school has a wider purpose than teaching basic literacy and numeracy - otherwise it would be a waste of time for my children, who are naturally gifted at literacy and numeracy without the need for much teacher input, but less so in other areas (ds1 needs help socially and with his practical skills, two utterly vital skills for enabling someone to progress in life). I would resent it colossally if I were told that my child's needs were not relevant to a school's role and that I had to deal with them entirely by myself whilst still having to waste their time sending them to school to learn what they already know, just as you resent having to have anything to do outside of school relating to what you see to be a school's job. I also think schools do have some role to play in helping to develop a child's social conscience and making it feel as though it is part of a community (and that community is an important concept - it's not as if modern society sends that message out to anyone through any other channels these days, except as a politician's cynical soundbite whilst he fails to practice what he preaches).

So, what would you do for my children? Tell them they aren't welcome in your vision for State education, because they aren't needy enough in the right areas?

Yes there is a three tier system in Germany, much loved by those whose children make it into the Gymnasium (grammar school), the others are on the scrapheap of life chances - great

My point about Germany was that it's perfectly possible to have no knowledge of reading, writing or maths by age seven and to still become a high achiever.

German children are not entirely devoted to play until primary ..they are usually at kindy where they are exposed to the usual counting songs etc etc fine motor skills, handwriting and so on.

"No knowledge" is misleading.

POINTY: yes.. but that is literacy, advanced primary literacy. Literacy is more than spelling tests. That is what I mean. Except the topic isn't Romans until later.. the topic is literacy.

I am sorry you wrote a lot and I wish to respond but I have to go. Definitely coming back.

In most Kindergartens parents are actively discouraged from teaching their children any reading, writing or maths.

It really is true that German kindergartens are all about free play. They won't do so much as teach them how to write their name.

ps I agree with all of pointythings' caveats (as well as my own...). Literacy and numeracy standards are not high enough in many schools at the moment. I just don't think that's the only problem, nor that Appletrees has found the solution.

Where is Appletrees? I wanted to register my children

A return to traditional teaching methods and a focus on the 3Rs, would this necessitate a return to a strict regime on discipline I wonder?

How would parents react to that?

PMSL "we believe parents appreciate that the NHS cannot provide the type of medical care that is desirable for your children".

Minimathsmouse - precisely my point. Schools reflect our society, and we do not have a disciplined society. Change one and you are asking to change the other. I would also have a horror of teachers who had not themselves ever had formal grammar lessons being asked to teach my children in that manner - it would be atrociously boring, particularly for bright children (who ought to be catered for in the State sector as well, not just the plodders Appletrees seems to have in mind, who require constant repetition and reinforcement...). I would rather some teachers went back to "school," got a better grounding in literacy and numeracy basics themselves, and then used this knowledge to bury the same skills into a more interesting curriculum. The problem at the moment is that, badly done, cross curricular teaching can become a woolly excuse to avoid the issue. Well done, it can be an enjoyable and constructive way of learning the three Rs, flexible enough to cater for a wider range of needs, provided rigorous attention is given to tracking the progress of each child in the class.

Perhaps I should say, "embed" the skills into a more interesting curriculum, rather than "bury"!

Would it be fair to say that the 'old fashioned' 3R approach to teaching was easier to deliver than the 'modern' methods and that the skills required to deliver the old 3R curriculum were lower than modern teaching methods require?

Just thinking about the resources we have to hand. While it may be desirable to use 'modern' methods maybe we have to accept that the 'modern' approach is simply not feasible without employing at huge cost all the very high skill teachers we woudl need. Maybe mass education can only be delivered with an old fashioned 3R approach because we simply do not have the money or resources to deliver education in any other way.

Thinking back to my old primary school I am pretty sure my teachers did not have degrees or even formal qualifications. They were all quite old even then and retired shortly after I left school. They were not 'high skill' teachers but no one left the school without being able to read, write and do arithmetic.

Beenbeta I think you have hit the nail on the head. I found an old school picture of my father in the 50s and there was one teacher to - horror - 50 yes 50 children.

And yes they did all learn to read and write.

One of the problems as I have witnessed it in my children's classrooms is that the modern approach requires a lot of resources and input and these are often not there.

Also, my daugther often complains of the teacher spending lots of time at the computer or at a desk writing - I assume documenting and filling in paperwork. This must be a huge drain and who is it there to help?

I do think the old-fashioned 3 Rs approach was easier to deliver. I don't think everyone left school being able to read, write and add up under the old system, though (or, I should say, I know that they didn't). And I might have to opt out of State education after all if we throw the baby out with the bathwater and entirely re-embrace the old methods just because they are cheaper. I want more out of education than learning to read, write and add up, and more than an uninspiring functionary for a teacher.

I have just read to NFER research on differentiation in KS2/3 and the researchers are obsessed with resources and the children's ability to access and use resources effectively. It was found that managing differentiation within the class was easy to plan but fell apart at the point of delivery.

Classrooms were found to be noisy and chaotic, children often didn't know what they were meant to be doing. Many children didn't understand what the learning outcomes were.

I think modern methods and assessment can work very well, but 30 children to one teacher in a small enclosed space coupled with the individualised learning targets leads to the NFER findings.

If we want a creative approach to learning and every child needs to be catered for, should children be set according to ability, not just within the class but across the yr group or even the whole school?

Many teachers struggle with maths and many lack higher level literacy skills, should more use be made of specialist teachers and skills sharing?