"enjoy your food", "talk to me" - imperatives, right?

[emkana]

Not according to dd's teacher - she keeps going on about "imperative verbs" to which group talk and enjoy apparently do not belong. I am german so just to make sure I got this is not a difference in the languages I'm unaware of - every verb can be put into the imperative mood yes? No such thing as imperative verbs? And how do I tell the teacher?

By the way (sorry for double post), 'Bon Appetit' is not an imperative, as it is not a verb. But the poster who mentioned it is right that if you said it, it would have the force of saying something like 'I hope you enjoy your food'. This is because some expressions are conventionally associated with expressing a layer of meaning in addition to their literal meaning. e.g. if you said to someone 'Can you open the window?', you really mean something like 'I want/order you to open the window'.

Sorry for the lecture.

I am pondering now whether I agree that "enjoy your food" is the optative mood - if you look at it in the way that an imperative expresses an exhortation as much as an order, could you not say that in this example it is an imperative?

Hi Emkana

No I don't think so either, but unfortunately I'm a professional pedant!

Email the teacher this thread!

I learned no grammar at school apart from a bit about 'doing words'. I don't think 'enjoy your food' is an exhortation in th real sense. It is just a poor English version of Bon Appetit. I think 'Eat up!' or 'Tuck in!' would be imperative.
Talk to me clearly is. I think your daughter is quite unusual to be learning grammar at all in Yr3, tbh.

It's only about the way the verb is used in that sentence, not about the meaning of the phrase.

Yes, on reflection I can see that. It's like 'sleep well' isn't it?

Yes

Yes, I did think about that. You could possibly make a case either way. One could argue that it is an imperative form that carries a non-literal meaning of 'I hope you enjoy your food', or say that it's just a straight-up optative form with elided modal verb. The English optative is usually expressed with a modal verb (may), but it is not unheard of for it to be dropped: e.g. 'God help you'.

Have a nice day
Sleep well
Don't worry, be happy
Keep well
Take care

Surely all imperative without being orders, exactly?

Get well soon?

I agree with you CCF!

Yes, I would have thought lots of things are in the imperative mood without being orders per se - though now I've written that I can't really think of any. About the only verbs you can't put into the imperative are the modal verbs (you can't order someone to 'can' or 'must'). As Phyllis says, we don't have a discrete verb form to express the optative in English, so I guess it's a bit of a grey area.

But in any case there's absolutely no doubt about 'talk to me' and I doubt that your DD's teacher was debating over the finer points of whether 'Enjoy your food' was an optative with an elided modal rather than an imperative.

There's lots of interesting research that shows children are capable of grasping quite complex grammatical strucures and terms at a young age (which is very useful when it comes to second language learning).

Is your daughter bilingual? You can always play the 'I taught DD that in German xyz is the imperative, can you just clarify what the differences are in English so she doesn't get confused?'

Agree with FP that the distinction between optative and imperative in English is almost impossible because ellipsis of the modal very is so common but if you're teaching a rule in school then you should take care to choose straightforward imperative examples.

Don't worry, be happy is definitely an imperative to my mind though.

What is the (grammatical) difference between 'don't worry/be happy' and 'have a nice day?' From what I have (just!) read about the optative form that it is very rare without a modal verb, and the example given online was 'Oh, that I was a bird' or something - very different to 'have a nice day'

Yes, there are clear cut cases of imperative forms which don't have the sense of an order: e.g. 'don't hold your breath'.

I forgot about modal verbs. They can't take imperative forms, but as I said above, all other ones can, which is all you need to be able to say to the teacher.

I would still be inclined to sit on the fence about what precisely is going on in 'enjoy your food' though.

I do love this discussion - it's so very Mumsnet. Starting from a question about correcting a child's teacher, we've got to this lovely little pondering about exactly what grammatical form is being used in 'Enjoy your food'. I shall take myself off to my meeting in happy mood, pondering optatives and imperatives and jussive subjunctives...

Not sure if it's helped Emkana make up her mind abotu what to do, though!

Because you could be wishing someone a nice day - may you have a nice day - but you can't really use that with may you not worry...

I think.

Thankfully I don't have to teach this!

Goodness, we're all awfully frightened of upsetting the teacher aren't we (me too by the way)

She is teaching your DD something incorrect and marking DD down for it!

You can tell DD this (which is what my parents used to do) or you can speak to her about it, but to say nothing both leaves DD with the wrong information and with the impression that the teacher is always right by virtue of being the teacher.

If you are going to talk with her express it as help, you clearly do know more about grammar than she does, you are helping her out.

As an aisde why is 'bossy' a better word than 'imperative'?

Still not sure what to do, but firmly convinced that grammatically "Enjoy your food" is an imperative!

And singersgirl, I agree, - only on MN!

I've already told dd that her homework was right!

Rules of grammar don't always help with comprehension.

Whether you are actually ordering someone to enjoy their food or not depends on your own personality!...

CCF

I think from the point of view of teaching in a school one may as well say that 'don't worry' and 'have a nice day' are imperatives in form, although 'have a nice day' has the sense of something like 'I wish you a nice day' rather than 'I command you to have a nice day'. From a linguist's point of view, one might want to sit on the fence about whether 'have a nice day' is actually an optative with no modal, but I agree that's beyond a school discussion. The important thing is to learn what an imperative basically looks like.

The verb 'be' does not use the normal optative modal in English. It uses the subjunctive mood to express wishes. You can also see the English subjunctive in expressions like 'if I were rich I would buy a massive house', but use of the subjunctive in English is gradually on the way out - in practice not many people wander round saying 'oh that I were a bird'. They would say 'I wish I was a bird'.

There are so many commands in form are not exactly commands in nature in the English language I don't think (having thought about it for the first time today, admittedly!) that they can possibly have another name in grammar, surely?
Some more:
Go on with you!
Look at you! (admiring a new look)
Stop it! (while giggling at a risque joke)
Don't! (ditto)
Fill your boots!
You go girl!
Dance yourself dizzy
Go for it!

etc etc etc

CCF, could this be related to the other recent thread about reticence in English communication. We are conflicted about commands, we need to make light of them, or call them bossy.

I must be difficult to teach grammar for such a lively language.