Should i say something?

[Floandno]

My 4yo has just started at a CofE school. Not our first choice, as we are both avid humanists, but it was the best one that we had a chance of getting into. Very nice school, very nice teachers, all good.
So, today was harvest festival. He came out of school saying that his teacher told him that God created everything. I obviously tried to explain to him that lots of people believe lots of different things about how everything was created and that was just her opinion, but because his teacher said it, he of course now believes the same. I'm absolutely furious. Not really about what he believes, thats his choice and of course we support him, but more so about it being taught this as though it was an incontrovertible fact. I feel like i'm totally overreacting, but at the same time, i think it's so wrong that they're teaching religion as fact and not belief. I feel like they're lying to him.
Should i say something? I'm so torn!

They have to teach it to teach about the different beliefs humans have; not as though it's gospel(pardon the pun and proven.

They are supposed to teach about evolution in equal measures but they don't!

How do we know that they don't? As parents we are not given lesson plans for the entire year, nor reports of conversations and discussions within class that arise out of study.

I don't conclusively; only by what I've read some other teachers say dandydan.

smee - apparently by teaching something about judaism deals with that part of the curriculum requirement. It's very clear in the school notes. I guess they don't specify how many other religions - or how different.

How many children go through church schools then become atheist adults? A lot of them. I don't think this will have a significant impact him.

I am a Christian who thinks all state funded schools should be secular but I can't see that happening.

I would find it hard to get worked up about this. Why not say "Yes that's what people say. And do you know how he created everything?" then tell him about the big bang, the formation of the earth, evolution. Education is all about leading from the simple to the complex. He's not going to spend the rest of his life believing the world was created in seven days by a bearded man in the sky because he heard the story when he was 4.

I'd save my fury for the inevitable bad spelling personally - much harder to undo.

"There's a fine but, I think, important line, between teaching that God is the ultimate creator and teaching creationism as a doctrine"

Seriously, it's not a fine line. Unless you're in some fundamentalist Christian backwater it's a massive great line.

Well that's everybody on this thread sorted out then Zephirine!

Actually Zep, I have read stuff on the walls that definitley crosses that line. There is an inference that all living things were created just as they are today. The line can be very fuzzy.

What walls, Acinonyx? Creationists are a small subgroup of Christians. The majority of people who would declare themselves to be Christian (certainly in this country - don't know about the States) absolutely do not believe in Creationism.

Walls in the school - the hall, for example.

My parents (and all most of the extended family that I knew of) were creationist xians - they may be a minority but they are a sizable one (and a majority in the US).

My impression is that a lot of people are very fussy about the whole thing.

duh - fuzzy, not fussy

Your son's belief system isn't completed aged 4, so you should be ok...

Usually when you agree to go to a CofE school, you have to agree to the Christian teaching and ethos, we had to sign something saying that we supported this, even if we weren't personally Christian.

I do think it's quite funny you are surprised by this. If you want an avowedly humanist education, in which various belief systems are taught as matters of choice, then a religious school is not for you.

Children are often quite uncritical and believe everything their teachers (and parents) tell them when they are little. It wears off, sadly!

Sorry - long post.
You should definitely not say anything to the school but you should do some serious thinking about whether you want your child educated there.

Church schools vary. Because so many schools were set up by the Church in the 19th C many bear the title 'C0fE' but there are two different kinds. The voluntary aided ones (I think) tend to have closer links to a parish and are more religious.
You can certainly expect them to teach children the Christmas and Easter stories, plus Creation, the life of Jesus including miracles (yes he did walk on water) and some Old Testament stories.

If it is really going to bother you that your child faces 7 years of being told that Jesus died to save us, I would seriously suggest you consider moving schools. Parents and schools need to be in partnership. If you feel the need to contradict and undermine something which is a fundamental part of the education offered at that school, it will be difficult for your child. S/he will not have the glow of pride at their participation in the Carol Service watched by parents who have told him/her it is all a load of rubbish... If you feel like this at the first Harvest festival in Reception class how are you going to cope with Christmas and Easter, let alone for the six years thereafter?! It is relatively easy to explain away 'God made the world' by talking about a 'life force' or some such thing, but Jesus dying on the cross and rising again is going to really cause you problems.

An alternative point of view is that by attending this school s/he will be better informed about the Christian story which is one of the foundation stones of Western civilization, morality, literature and history. Also, s/he will be better able to make up her/his own mind about faith in the future. If they did have religious faith in future would you be upset that it might be because they had been indoctrinated at primary school?!

(By the way Pernickety, Christians also teach their children about the big bang and evolution. You don't get many fundamentalist Creationists in local CofE schools - they seem to be mostly in America.)
My children were at a Catholic school and then CofE. I myself teach RE and find it one of the most fascinating subjects to tackle with children.

Okay a few points. You don't have to be C of E to be the head of a C of E school, my DCs head is a Baptist.

Learning about believing God created the world is good culturally as a lot of history and literature is explainable from that point of view.

My DCs C of E school teaches: Judaism (with Jewish parents visiting), Islam (with Muslim TA helping) and Hinduism (with Hindu parents visiting and a visit to a temple), they also do a bit on different creation stories which includes Native American and African. This is a very suburban type school, so not a huge cultural mix.

Finally kids do go through a phase of believing whatever their teacher tells them, including any mistakes (eg. I heard a teacher mis explain the use of speech marks once). They will argue against you, however over time they will decide teachers are just as fallible as parents and will listen to you again and make up their own mind.

Floandno, just you wait for the school to tell your son that Darwin 'is an opinion'!!

It makes me laugh when people think CofE schools provide a rounded approach because they 'teach' about other religions... It is not rounded if they don't acknowledge that some people are simply NOT religious, as I'm assuming the OP is. Non religious families are bypassed by the education system in this country, it's as simple as that.

And before you all start going on about the school being CofE and that the OP could send her DC elsewhere, I have 2 genuine comments/questions:

1. The government does not give you a choice as to whether your taxes go into religious schools or not, therefore what gives religious schools the right to discriminate against non-religious people who help fund them...???

1. The OP could take her DC to another school. REALLY??? That assumes the existence of choice of school which depending upon where you live, is a luxury very few have.

notanother - like your way of thinking and completely agree with you.

C of E schools are really only a product of the time they were created; a very religious period where the church was used to educate the masses.

In a very much less relisious society today though, we could certainly do away with religious schools; yes still teach about others' faiths but I don't see the need for the link with the Church anymore.

I get quite sick of some people slagging off those parents who pretend to go to church for a while in the hope that their children will be accepted in a CofE school. 'Such hypocrites!' people say. What about the hypocrisy of the establishment, not allowing children to enter a particular school because of their parents beliefs or lack of, but gladly accepting funding from this very people?

Yes of course, because it's that simple...

Gosh - myredcardigan - hope your 'indie' school doesn't do Father Christmas. My son once came home and told me that he was going to die because he had swallowed an apple seed and a tree would soon grow in his tummy. He put two and two together from his 'factual' lesson on seeds and plants and made fifteen. That's what kids do. Maybe I should have ripped him out and sent him to Eton.

Incidentally, teachers teaching in independent schools are trained in the same places as teachers in state schools. As someone who trains teachers for a living, I can say from experience, that our best graduates don't go into the private sector. That's just a by-the-way.

I must be really bored ... & if you cab arsed read this:

From Humanism.org
"In community schools the head teacher is responsible for collective worship provision, in consultation with the governors. The majority of acts of collective worship in any given school term should still be "wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character". In other acts of worship, consideration should be given to "circumstances relating to the family backgrounds of the pupils which are relevant for determining the character of the collective worship which is appropriate in their case" and to the "ages and aptitudes" of the pupils.

A "broadly Christian" act of worship must contain some elements which relate to the traditions of Christian belief and which accord a special status to Jesus Christ. (Circular 1/94, paragraph 63). Only on special occasions can the act of worship take place somewhere other than on the school premises, subject to the agreement of the head.

In foundation and voluntary schools not of religious character the daily act of worship is to be in accordance with the trust deeds of the school, and arrangements made by the governors after consulting the head teacher.

In foundation and voluntary schools with a religious character the arrangements are to be made by the governors after consulting the head teacher. Here the worship is to be "in accordance with any provisions of the trust deed relating to the school" or, where the deed does not make such provision, "in accordance with the tenets and practices of the religion or religious denomination specified under Section 69(4) [of the 1998 Act]". This refers to the Order from the Secretary of State for a voluntary school or foundation school with a religious character, which states precisely the religion or denomination concerned.

Independent schools are not covered by Education Acts, but will usually be governed in this context by their foundation deeds, or by policies agreed by their boards of governors. In April 2010 the government released non-statutory guidance for independent schools on improving the spiritual, moral, social and cultural (SMSC) development of their pupils.

Additional guidance

The law is clarified by non-statutory guidance in the Department for Education's Circular 1/94 (or Welsh Office Circular 10/94).

The BHA has received further government guidance to expand on this: "Although the collective worship ... should be "wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character" only a majority of acts in each term must meet that requirement. Moreover, any act of worship can contain non-Christian material."

Oooops should have read "can be arsed" ... tired too I think