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Primary education

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How do I ask the school HOW catholic they are?

36 replies

WhyAyeButterPie · 03/10/2010 09:07

So, now we have decided to at least start DD1 off in school, we have a choice between two local primarys. One (at the end of the road-the school bus parks outside our house) is catholic, marginally better ofsted and bigger grounds. The other one is secular, up a big hill, swimming pool, Deaf unit (although ours aren't Deaf) children's centre, bit bigger and marginally worse ofsted. Also in a slightly worse off area, but not sure if that is good or bad.

In trying to choose between the two, we really need to know what is involved in being a catholic school. DH seems to think that catholic schools are automatically better, but I am really worried about some of the dodgier aspects of catholicism. We are both very supportive of the Christian tradition and keen for our children to have a good basis in the stories etc (as they will struggle with much of literature, music, etc without it) but we are atheist socialist liberal guardian reading types and so some of the scare stories about religious school are a bit, well, scary.

How do I ask them HOW catholic they are (eg the catholic school in my village lost half a day every week to praying and mass and whatever, which obviously isn't ideal for our family, and you hear all kinds of horror stories about homophobia etc) without offending them?

Otoh, I went to a secular school, and they had creationists talking to us about how evolution is apparently "scientifically impossible", so I know this kind of thing isn't confined to religious schools.

I hope that the issues that come into play with teenagers aren't an issue (the abortion films, refusing youth workers access, lack of support for gay pupils, etc- again, though, could all be scare stories) although I suppose sex ed does start in primary school...there is nothing contreversial in SRE for primary kids though, is there? In a catholic sense I mean.

Although, actually, now I remember our SRE, there were several bits that catholics wouldn't like (in fact, I think it may have been illegal at the time, as the teachers definitely told us it is ok to be gay), but again I suppose it depends how hardline they are.

We love the general ideas in christian ideology- love thy neighbour etc, and DH is very keen for the kids to learn Latin etc (but he does seem to think that is somehow part of primary school- I have no idea where he got this notion) but it is the more "out-there" bits that we are worried about.

I hope this is coming across right- basically, I don't want to end up fighting with the school, and they are, after all, blatantly a catholic school (named after a saint and with the words RC primary school on the sign) so I can't moan. BUT we would be very supportive of a bit of lightweight moral guidance, some bible stories and even a bit of praying- I am still trying to get my head round some traditions, possibly because of how the catholic kids were so "other" when we were growing up in a secular school and c of e/evangelical church (when we had phases of church, anyway)

Also, it seems daft to send our kids to the other achool if all this school does is goes to the local church on special occaisions and tells the odd bible story. If that makes sense.

Also, DH is totally for the catholic school, and doesn't believe me when I say some schools are very religious- he says it is just the anti catholic propaganda.

I did grow up being told that catholics worship idols, beat their wives, are terribly repressed, etc, which I can now see was just predjudice, but is this the same?

OP posts:
rainbowinthesky · 03/10/2010 09:09

I'd be surprised if you'd get into the catholic school anyway if you're not catholic. Do you know you can have a place there?

TheFallenMadonna · 03/10/2010 09:11

What are the entry requirements for the RC school. It may be a non-issue as your DD wouldn;t get a place anyway. Find that out first I think.

loopyloops · 03/10/2010 09:13

I doubt they will go to the local church unless the local church is RC.

Usually RC schools will involve daily exposure to the religion, in one way or another.

Have you read their Ofsted report? that might help you a bit.

Many local primaries are Cof E. I don't think they are much different.

Will you be able to get into the RC one? RC one near us is VERY over subscribed.

WhyAyeButterPie · 03/10/2010 09:13

I don't think they are oversubscribed. Anyway, don't they have to have a certain amount of non-catholic children? I would be very very surprised if there are any 3 year olds living neaer the school (and they are very well hidden 3 year olds at that as I have never seen them- there are very few children on this estate)

On this issue though, DH seems to think that they will want us as we are quite well spoken and have a vaguely catholic name (DD1 has about the most Irish Catholic name ever- not on purpose) as well as him having grown up in the house directly outside the gates and he went to the nursery there himself. I did try to tell him that it doesn't work like that.

OP posts:
WhyAyeButterPie · 03/10/2010 09:15

The local church is RC and named after the same saint, so presumably is linked.

OP posts:
loopyloops · 03/10/2010 09:15

Oh, IME (limited, I went to RC school), they tend to be seen as "better" because parents are often quite involved and quite strict. Often it is quite difficult to get a child a place, and children might come from further away, so the effort of sending them there means that you have parents who tend to be a bit more involved in their DC's education, IYSWIM?

Maybe TheFallenM will be able to explain better, or might disagree.

Goblinchild · 03/10/2010 09:16

Catholic schools have a special, separate report done at the same time as OFSTED, in the same term. I've forgotten exactly what it's called, but it covers the Faith bit and how they are doing on it.
Read that.

Goblinchild · 03/10/2010 09:17

Check the admission criteria as well, your DH sounds a bit away with the fairies. In the nicest way.

loopyloops · 03/10/2010 09:18

They do usually have to take a certain amount of non RC children, but the admissions procedure will have a priority list - usually something like:

RC children in care
non RC children in care
RC children with siblings at school
RC children in catchment
RC children out of catchment
non RC children with siblings at school
non RC but christian children in catchment
other children in catchment.

Rockbird · 03/10/2010 09:19

Erm, could you hang round the gates and have a chat to parents? Or ring the school and ask to make an appt to chat to the head? It's hard to tell. The school we have in mind for dd is very Catholic but not hard line catholic IYSWIM. I don't think you can really tell unless you ask them. As you're not Catholic you could legitimately ask them about it in a way that myself as practising probably couldn't.

onimolap · 03/10/2010 09:23

You say you are atheist; if there is a nearby acceptable school offering the nearest thing there is to a secular state education, then I'd have thought it was a no-brainer.

loopyloops · 03/10/2010 09:24

Just looked up our local RC primary and admissions criteria is:

  1. Looked After Children who are baptised Catholics
  2. Baptised Catholic children living in the parishes of St xxx or St
xxx who have a sibling in the school at the time of admission.
  1. Baptised Catholic children who are living in the parishes of St xxx or St xxx
  2. Baptised Catholic children from other parishes who have a sibling in the school at the
time of admission.
  1. Baptised Catholic children from other parishes.
  2. Other looked-after children
  3. Non? Catholic children who have a sibling in the school at the time of admission.
  4. Non-Catholic children.
onimolap · 03/10/2010 09:26

Oh, and it doesn't really matter what they say to you now: one change of headteacher or to the make up of the governing body can completely change the devotional profile of the school

WhyAyeButterPie · 03/10/2010 09:26

How would I find out if it is over subscribed?

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piscesmoon · 03/10/2010 09:27

If you are in England there are no secular schools. They are non denominational. Read 1998 education act before you start.

loopyloops · 03/10/2010 09:28

Ofsted website would tell you. Google search would be a start.

WhyAyeButterPie · 03/10/2010 09:32

What do I search for though? "school name over subscribed"? Or is it actually in the ofsted?

OP posts:
loopyloops · 03/10/2010 09:34

PM me the school name and I'll search for you.

Ofsted do usually say too.

seeker · 03/10/2010 09:37

!. There are no secular state schools in the UK.

  1. All state schools in the UK have to have transparent admissions procedures which cannot include "nicely spoken" The school's admission procedures will be on their website.
  1. The best way to find out is to go and visit. Talk to the Head. Have a tour of the school. Keep an eye out for Sacred Heart picturea and rosaries.
Lougle · 03/10/2010 09:42

Most LAs issue a list of all schools in their area, what their PAN is, how many were admitted in the current academic year, and how far away the last pupil placed on distance grounds was if the school was oversubscribed.

Goblinchild · 03/10/2010 09:44

RE has the same time allocation as science in a week 10% of curriculum time. Some of them pray regularly throughout the day, and have prayer corners in every classroom.
You won't know until you do a proper visit and look round.

Clary · 03/10/2010 09:50

A catholic school is IME very different fron a CofE school.

Catholic schools tend to assume that the majority of the intake is Catholic (it usually is) and will do a lot of first communion etc; also there will prob be lots of emphasis on links with the chuch which, if you don't attend Mass (I assume not) may make you feel left out.

I would never choose a catholic school myself, but that's because we are not catholic.

Have you looked round them? What are the criteria of the catholic school? You may have to go to mass to get in anyway.

Yes roffle @ "well spoken" not usually an admission criterion Grin

Waswondering · 03/10/2010 09:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhyAyeButterPie · 03/10/2010 09:52

Eek- hold on, the other school has a "school improvement plan" - that wasn't there last time I searched for it!

But then, that could be good- it could mean that more attention is being put into the school.

I've always been of the opinion that people should just send their kids to the nearest school and be done with it, but when the nearest school is Catholic, I'm not sure...

OP posts:
AgonyBeetle · 03/10/2010 09:52

The LEA booklet 'starting school' (usually downloadable from website) should have (a) the full admissions criteria and (b) the number of children admitted under each criterion last year. So you will be able to see if there were a reasonable number of non-catholic kids admitted previously, which should give you an idea of the odds for you. If you can't find that information from the LEA you can ask the school. Catholic schools only have to take non-catholics if they are under-subscribed wtih catholic families. Your child's name and your accent will not have any bearing on your chances of admission! Most catholic schools in urban areas are very ethnically and socially mixed -- generally not the local 'posh' option.

Wrt the level of catholic practice, RE in catholic primary schools is generally based around the 'Here I Am" program. This is quite fluffy and inclusive in parts, with themes like 'initiation', 'families' and 'celebrations', but there will generally be very specific connections made with Catholic teaching and practice. See here for an example of RE policy from a school that does have a number of non-catholic pupils. This is pretty typical, I'd say, so if it makes you shudder you might be better off with a non-Catholic school. My dc's primary school is generally not over-subscribed or only slightly so, and does have a number of pupils from other faiths, but they are expected to join in with assemblies and masses (though not take communion, obv), make the sign of the cross, say prayers etc.

Preparation for sacraments (First Communion, in Y3) takes place mainly through the parishes, but there will be close links with the school, there will generally be a Mass at the school for the FHC children, where they will all wear their dresses, and possibly a Corpus Christi procession as well. You'd need to think about whether your dc might feel left out at this point, and whether that will bother you. Also lots of families are likely to know each other from church and children's liturgy etc, so again you need to consider whether you will feel left out by this.

The general theme of the RE is not, "Some people believe XYZ", it will be "We believe XYZ", where XYZ is the official teachings of the church. At primary level you're not going to encounter the obviously controversial stuff like contraception etc, but there will be an assumption that you believe or at least support the teachings of the Catholic church. I know quite a few non-Catholic families who are v. happy with their dc's Catholic schools, but you want to go into it with your eyes open. You don't want to sign up because of some mistaken belief that you're getting a better education than is available in a mainstream community school and then find that you really struggle to support the school's ethos.