Modern foreign languages in KS2

[Sinkingfeeling]

Does anyone know if state primary schools still have to teach a foreign language in KS2? My twins have just started Y3 and there's no sign of any foreign language teaching yet, though I know French has been taught in previous years. I know I should just ask the school, but wondered what the overall position is.

There is an entitlement to learn a modern foreign language. I'd ask the school directly if they teach it.

I thought this was the first year KS" had to be taught a language.

cutbacks cutbacks

Schools can't just not teach something "compulsory" because of cut backs. Can they?

in 2007 Lord Dearing recommnded that MFL should be compulsory in primary schools from 2010. Following the rose review in 2009 it was due to actually become compulsory when the new primary curriculum was introduced in 2010.

Since then there has been a change in government, the new curriculum is out the window and primary schools are waiting to see what direction the coalition want us to take. I think MFL should be compulsory at KS2 and hope that when the coalition government have reviewed the curriculum, they agree.

What would you like us to drop to fit it in?
Agree would be good to include it but my God the timetable is FULL!

Well, lots of schools seem to manage to fit it in.

Yes many do, our school is one of them, however we have had to drop one literacy lesson a week in order to fit it in. There is a limited tamount of time in the week and an overcrowded primary curriculum.

Schools that fit it in will have to do less maths or english, less PE or music etc - all of these options would be the wrong one for some parents so schools really can't keep every parent happy. You want it to be delivered at your child's school another parent at the schoo will be happy not to have it as it may mean their child gets more PE for example. Can't win (big sigh!)

Exactly my point mumtoabeautifulbabtboy... and well put. I remember reading an article that insisted every child should have an hour of numeracy and literacy a day but at teh same time was shocked that "half the school day was given over to literacy and numeracy"! errr yes it would be!
Honestly teachers can't win and certainly can't keep everyone happy. I could be controversial and say that if I had to do less parenting of others children perhaps I could fit more in... [ducks and prepares to get flamed]

Dd's school started teaching french last year when she was in yr2.
Her school employs a teacher specifically for this.
She does one day per week going through each of the classes.

One of the teachers at my DD & DS's school has stopped having a full time class and now goes round all the classes teaching french. She also goes and teaches the yr2's at the local infant school.

In DS's school they have a teacher come in while their class teacher is doing her PPP, (or whatever). Theey also have music with during this afternoon,

New governments have said that they don't want MFL teaching in KS2, as they want back to basics History, English, Science and Maths focus. They don't want PSHE taught either. This was according to a news report last week,

my DS is year 4 and his year have just started MFL

To quote Gove last week (westminster speech)
"I am deeply concerned that fewer and fewer students are studying languages, it not only breeds insularity, it means an integral part of the brain?s learning capacity rusts unused."

And also the statement released by the DfE on 26 August regarding Primary languages which basically said until the new primary curriculum is sorted out schools should continue to teach primary languages.

www.primarylanguages.org.uk/home/news/news_articles/dfe_statement.aspx

I would use these two communications to challenge your child's school.

A lot of work has been put into getting languages in primary schools and if some schools start giving up those pupils will be at a disadvantage when they start at secondary. This is just not fair and primary head teachers need to know that parents won't have it!

Forgot to say that the languages entitlement (1 hr per week throughout KS2) that came into force in january 2010 is a legal requirement. Statutory or not, schools have to provide language tution. However, the get of jail free card for them is that it doesn't have to be in class time so some are offering after school clubs instead.

To those teachers who say the timetable is full I regularly inspect schools who have an extremely broad and balanced curriculum offer and use many literacy and numeracy lessons to deliver other subjects and double count the time. I saw a fantastic measurement lesson the other day which was actually an 'art' lesson. The new government are much more about subject disciplines and the 'basics' that's true, but primary teachers need to stick to their guns and defend the cross curricular approaches that some of them use so well.

Personally, I see no benefit in my children having been taught a few words of French in an appalling accent by somebody who has no real understanding of the language. In fact, dd would have been at far less of a disadvantage without having to spend time unlearning what she had learnt wrong.

Of course if there was money to provide these junior school with teachers with native speaker competency and special training in language teaching- fine and good. But that's not going to happen.

At my dc's primary, they now start learning MFL (spanish) in reception. By the end of Y2, they can ask simple questions, say 'my name is' what is your name' 'how old are you' and how to ask for hot dinners or packed lunch at the register, plus lots more. In Y3 last year, DS1 was able to sing (and understand) 'o christmas tree' in spanish, having never heard the song in english. By the end of Y6, they are able to hold a semi-decent conversation, as good as a Y9 child does in french after learning it for 3 years.

The school does 2 hrs of PE a week, has lots of science lessons, they do history, geography and RE. Every child spends 2 school years learning to play the violin (Y5 and 6) and every child does swimming once a week in Y3-6. So it doesn't hurt them to be learning MFL.

They do do a lot of cross-curricular stuff to fit this all in mind you. They may work on history at the same time as RE and geography for example, like my DS1 is doing a topic on 'india' this term, and so far, they have done rangoli patterns (art) Hinduism (RE) explaining how to undertake a journey to India, and what countries you would have to cross to get there (geography) Bollywood films (art, music and dance/PE) and lots more.

The school might be crap bad for it's lack of communication with parents, and help with sn dc, but I do like the way they do their topics, and the sheer volume of stuff they learn about.

many and I mean many resources for non-speciaists come with sound cd's which have real native speakers to aid pronuniation...so there should be no excuse for bad accents.

It's sad imo that primary dont have it early enough, kids get to secondary and feel inhibited, embarrassed and as it isnt compulsory now to take a language they drop it. How many of us in our life have said "Oh I wish I could speak a second language"

Thanks everyone for those very helpful replies - but oh dear, I didn't mean to open a can of worms. I was only wondering what the 'statutory' position was. My degree is in languages, so I'm very interested to find out more about how (or if) languages are taught in primary schools. I'm well aware that the curriculum is already very crowded, and equally aware that many teachers don't want to be in the position of having to teach a language they don't speak themselves. As I said, can of worms ...

Cory does it matter if the teacher is not a native speaker? the most important thing is exposure to another language and culture surely? You don't really need a native speaker to teach at Key stage 2, just someone who is good at teaching langauges?

No, they don't have to be a native speaker, but if they teach a child to pronounce French in a very English accent, it can be quite difficult to undo later.

Also most people need specific language teaching training to be good at teaching languages. None of the teachers my dcs had at junior school were what I would call real language teachers. It is very difficult to teach a language effectively if your understanding of it is unclear and you have not been trained in specific teaching techniques.

By the time dd got to secondary, she had forgotten all her French except the appalling accent: and as dd's first language is not English and we do not pronounce French words in English at home, I knew perfectly well she could only have acquired the ghastly English accent at school.

fwiw I grew up in Sweden where all children were expected to learn to speak English, most children were expected to learn the basics of at least another language, and if you were going onto university three modern languages were more or less the norm (and you had the chance to do Latin and Greek on top of those).

Yet we did not start our first language (ie. English) until the age of 10 or 11, the second at 13, and the third at 16. And still, a surprising number of my friends ended up able to speak those languages. Any self consciousness was looked after by the simple fact that we knew we had to learn those languages and that failure to do so would affect our final scores. I have never heard a Swede say "oh I wish I could speak a foreign language". We weren't given the option. If we had said we were too self conscious, people around us would have laughed as heartily as you would laugh at a 14yo who says he won't do equations because it makes him feel self conscious.

It's a good point cory. I think the focus needs to be on teachers who have a good basic command of the language and that should include a good (enough) pronunciation. The problem is that so many potential linguists have been lost due to the fact that languages were made non-compulsory after 14 - you just cannot get the quality that you need. There just aren't enough people with the right qualifiactions. So I'm all in favour of training up/refreshing linguists with at least an A level and most importantly the enthusiasm and skills to inspire kids at that age. The whole point of starting young is to get them inpired early when they are far less self-conscious.

Here, here Muttimalzwei....capture their interest and enthusiasm when they are young, let their minds "soak up" and develop an interest. Hoepfully they will carry this over to secondary

I agree it is about instilling interest.

I want to keep it but would like to see something along the lines suggested by Cory that students realise that they NEED a language. Bring back the compulsory language at GCSE - a copmplete travesty that they scrapped it.