What do you think about this 'system' and would it bother you?

[Cortina]

The facts are these, in our school we have had virtually static ability tables in year one. We have also had the poor behaviour concentrated towards the lower end of the ability table spectrum. The ability tables are all equal groups of 6.

I've come to terms with this and hey, year 2 is another year and a hopefully different system! DS is in the bottom end of the class. He's done well and I am pleased.

I discovered towards the end of this academic year that the various tables/pupils were given words to learn depending on what is was decided they were capable of learning and remembering at the time. Upshot is top table finished all the 'word lists' and perhaps others at tables in the top half of the class. No formal spelling tests but when you receive a word list you also receive an exercise to try at home using those words. With me so far? Top third all moved on to trickier more challenging stuff in the last term. On to Y2 key words plus etc if that's what they are called?

DS had completed about half of the lists by year end and to be honest the words and exercises never presented a problem, he ended the year at level 2C. Great, not a reason to be concerned. I realised that he hadn't covered most of these words though and asked for the words/exercises for us to do at home, no problem. He read all the words to me no problem when I presented all the left over lists to him.

He was on list 3 out of a possible 20 at the end of the year after completing some other alphabetical lists of words/different system that went first. We haven't done much work these holidays so far and the other words he can read perfectly well but hasn't learnt them as yet. The words on list 20 are the months of the year to give you an idea.

So this isn't important at all is it? It's just I fear I see a system here that creates the positive outliers of the future as the top half of the class pull further and further away from others whose potential may be the same or similar?

(A similar scheme operates for maths by the way).

I fear I see a system where teachers and others could subconsciously 'believe' that X must be more capable than Y and this might have negative consequences going forward. I know that I find myself thinking this way, human beings like to label after all, to create order out of disorder etc.

I fear I see a system where the top half of the class are the only ones that believe they are capable of more and have the potential?

I fear that other systems will be operating, like this one, which disadvantage some of the children who are not on the top table/top half of class?

Or are my small concerns all unfounded they are only 5/6 after all! :)

So my question/s are would you just think this was ok and not worry? I feel I 'should' do work with my son this holidays or I will be disadvantaging him due to this system.

I disagree with the concept of ability tables, however they are managed.

I am so sorry you have completely lost me (or I have completely lost you)

How many children to have in the class to have 20 different word list possible? or did I not get anything at all?

As do I, and I won't bore you rigid with my thoughts on these :). Thing is, they are there (in some format), usually not as static as ours but largish classes for most mean that this is the only way many teachers can cope. In a ideal world, as I've said many times before, the teacher rolls things out to the individual and knows their strengths and weaknesses.

Teachers on here that have commented on this before have some great systems in place and manage to do a great job even in large classes so it seems it's certainly possible in theory to do away with seemingly static systems.

Why do you object out of interest and do you think I am worrying about nothing in this specific example?

Afaik level 2c at the end of Y1 is well above average

So what I think you are saying is that those not exposed to as many lists ar eat a disadvantage to those who have achieved them all. However if the work wasn't differentiated then that would surely be more of an issue and affect your ds' confidence if he could n't then do what was asked of him? fwiw the word lists are KS1 so any year 1/2 split is arbitrary.

It goes a bit like this goronine, children are given word lists A-Z term one, start of the year. When they've done these they move on to numbered lists 1-20. They have finished when they've completed the lot successfully and move on extension work of a different sort in the same sort of vein.

At some point it is decided that some children know the words and can skip a list or two and the exercises that go with them. It might be that various tables start at various points.

Although these are not spelling tests they were actually tested on them - I didn't realise this for a couple of terms. DS did fine.

Upshot is that top tables have finished everything and moved on. Bottom half haven't. I asked about it and got everything to take home and cover myself.

There is a similar system for maths.

Am not sure it's a terrible system, a confusing one to us parents, but children seem to be learning. What I don't like about it is what I outlined in previous post.

Am probably concerned over nothing but sometimes this sort of thing is scarily familiar as to what was played out in my classroom many moons ago. It had all the results that I fear and outlined in my previous posts, this is why I sometimes worry over seemingly trivial things I think :).

If the children are learning then it must be working.

As a PP said, 2c at the end of Year 1 is above average.

I can see the logic in the system, those who are ready for new/harder work are given it without having to wait for those who aren't to "catch up", and on the other side of the coin those who aren't ready for harder work aren't put off education for life by constantly having to struggle.

I would be a little worried if it was entirely inflexible though, there should be scope for children who blossom or plateau during the year to move group.

Yes, sorry Liz, you are right.

It seems our year is quite an able one and I would predict that the top table are probably around a level 2A at present if not higher in a couple of cases. These children are brought on and nurtured and the learning atmosphere is one of quiet calm, unlike the bedlam at my son's table :).

My son is young for year and there is always a sensitivity about confidence which it's important to take into account I know. The top third of the class seem to continue to prosper in this atmosphere of quiet calm. You could almost be in two classrooms at times it seems, quiet calm (top half) absolute bedlam most of the time but lots of laughs I have to say (bottom half).

domesticsluttery, some have moved groups in the year but only 2 or so in total.

The way of working you describe isn't one widely found in primary schools.
My personal belief is that if children aren't given the opportunity to learn... sometimes children need the challenge so they can succeed,
word lists

Would it be really wicked of me to say 1. I dont have a clue what most of the original post means but 2. what really matters with children at this age is playing, reading to/with them and getting them to love books.

It all seems a bit of a fuss about very small children who wouldnt even be at school yet in some other countries which seem to manage quite well.

Dons tin hat

Follyfoot I'll join you in a tin hat as here we have the Foundation Phase ie Learning through Play up until the end of Yr 2, and DS2 (who has just finished Yr 1) wouldn't know a word list if it bit him on the bum!

Passes tin hat to domesticsluttery...

Mrz, I couldn't agree with you more. Is it possible that the cream of the class are identified and pushed further on? Or something of that sort happens? Not in your classroom but in some schools for some reason I don't understand?

Follyfoot, sorry I am confused myself by this complicated system, can you tell? :) Briefly top half of class speed through and are exposed to more word lists than bottom half and it gets to the point where the bottom half can't possibly catch up even if capable of doing so. Same thing for maths. Just in terms of lists of words rather than anything more fundamental.

Follyfoot & domesticsluttery how I wish I could be with you on this but I fear if I take my foot of the gas that I'll end up with same scenario being played out as in my school in the old days :). Namely, perfectly capable children not believing in themselves, believing their ability is limited and not achieving anything like their academic potential going forward.

Although I hear you that it should be about play, that's why we've done no work this holiday :). Sometimes I feel v torn :(.

i learned a lot from reading these posts. I was far from bril at school, but picked up a lot in later life. I worry about the children who really cant cope with early schooling.

Yes I would agree it could and does happen in some classrooms.

Thanks mrz, can I ask why?

OP please clarify what you mean by level 2c, do you mean just for reading or for writing, maths etc? I can't see how a child would achieve 2c if they haven't learnt most of the KS1 words. I also am a bit that 2a is avhieved in Y1 simply by knowing those words.

Have you seen the class in action? What are the top tables being taught?

But remember you arent your children Cortina so you cant put your past onto their future. Their self belief wont be helped by the (hope you dont mind me saying this) slightly panicky way this all seems to be being approached. Word lists are really of no importance at all to anything. Sand, water, listening to stories, making things,going to the park, make believe, mud and most of all love and acceptance. Thats whats important.

They are just babies at this age, of course they can catch up (assuming they were even 'behind' in the first place) to be honest they wouldnt even be at school for ages yet in Scandinavia.

Relax and enjoy this time, its brilliant.

SuSylvestersNiceSide the KS1 words were effectively "scrapped" years ago but some schools continue to teach them with word lists which is totally unnecessary. Children don't need to know these words to achieve level 2c if they have been taught to read/spell rather than to memorise

Indeed, I have seen the class in action. Have a relative with a child at the top table in the same so also have a glimpse in to what goes on there.

Son got 2C for all & I am pleased (he had been ill for most of the reception year, long story, so came into year one extremely behind). Son knows all the KS1 words- I think - but hasn't covered them officially in terms of word lists that have come home. He has brought about half as many home during the course of the year as to relative's DC. He has covered half the exercises compared to DC. It's a small thing and I haven't got my knickers in a twist about that as such it's more the system that has been operating.

No one will get a 2a for just moving through and word lists quickly and having a tick next to all the boxes as per 'word list' exercises of course, it's only part of the whole picture in terms of literacy.

Perhaps this system is also a small thing and I shouldn't worry?

That's kind of what I am getting at mrz, the OP's ds must surely be able to read quite well to be at 2c, so not sure what the problem is?

It being all about play works just as well (if not better) as sitting down with word lists though. Children in Wales enter KS2 at the same level as children in England do, but have spent Yrs 1&2 learning through play. I know which system I'd prefer if I were 6...

I know how easy it is to get worked up (and I am as guilty of it as anyone as you will see from many of my posts!), but children do need to learn at a level which is relevant to their needs. It would be harder on the children if there was no differentiation at all.

TBH I'm not entirely sure that there is a "perfect" system that would suit all children, parents and teachers.

Follyfoot, you are so right! I do try but it's hard sometimes. Hey, I've taken huge strides we've been playing in long grass and dens and have barely picked up a book these holidays, so far..:)

Do you remember the TV series? You can youtube it! Or are you a fan of the books? :)

mrz - glad to hear this. Maybe why they told us not to bother the kids re: learning to spell them (but then I found the kids were being tested on them anyway - stealth testing :)). Still interested why some children are creamed off etc as you said? Thanks.

It sounds grim.