What do you think about this 'system' and would it bother you?

[Cortina]

The facts are these, in our school we have had virtually static ability tables in year one. We have also had the poor behaviour concentrated towards the lower end of the ability table spectrum. The ability tables are all equal groups of 6.

I've come to terms with this and hey, year 2 is another year and a hopefully different system! DS is in the bottom end of the class. He's done well and I am pleased.

I discovered towards the end of this academic year that the various tables/pupils were given words to learn depending on what is was decided they were capable of learning and remembering at the time. Upshot is top table finished all the 'word lists' and perhaps others at tables in the top half of the class. No formal spelling tests but when you receive a word list you also receive an exercise to try at home using those words. With me so far? Top third all moved on to trickier more challenging stuff in the last term. On to Y2 key words plus etc if that's what they are called?

DS had completed about half of the lists by year end and to be honest the words and exercises never presented a problem, he ended the year at level 2C. Great, not a reason to be concerned. I realised that he hadn't covered most of these words though and asked for the words/exercises for us to do at home, no problem. He read all the words to me no problem when I presented all the left over lists to him.

He was on list 3 out of a possible 20 at the end of the year after completing some other alphabetical lists of words/different system that went first. We haven't done much work these holidays so far and the other words he can read perfectly well but hasn't learnt them as yet. The words on list 20 are the months of the year to give you an idea.

So this isn't important at all is it? It's just I fear I see a system here that creates the positive outliers of the future as the top half of the class pull further and further away from others whose potential may be the same or similar?

(A similar scheme operates for maths by the way).

I fear I see a system where teachers and others could subconsciously 'believe' that X must be more capable than Y and this might have negative consequences going forward. I know that I find myself thinking this way, human beings like to label after all, to create order out of disorder etc.

I fear I see a system where the top half of the class are the only ones that believe they are capable of more and have the potential?

I fear that other systems will be operating, like this one, which disadvantage some of the children who are not on the top table/top half of class?

Or are my small concerns all unfounded they are only 5/6 after all! :)

So my question/s are would you just think this was ok and not worry? I feel I 'should' do work with my son this holidays or I will be disadvantaging him due to this system.

I don't have a problem with setting/ability tables, differentiation is IMO essential for both higher and lower ability kids, but the apparent inflexibility of your school's system would worry me. where's the incentive to improve? I can understand it'd be more hassle but surely they should keep it monitored and make sure everyone is at the right level?

Also are you sure the kids really know what the tables mean? I was on the top (grey :o) table and honestly none of us had a clue what it meant until a few years later!

just wondering, what's the problem with word lists? isn't it just a list of spellings based around word families? or am I missing something?

I used to really enjoy our weekly spelling test . I seem to remember they were totally differentiated, even beyond the tables. when I'd raced through the whole book, I got homework like writing a newspaper :)

also my DSDs have certainly learnt vocab from spelling lists that otherwise they wouldn't have picked up (at juniors they had to write a sentence with each word, as well as learning the spellings - one of the few things the school did that we were actually happy with!)

LOL! Go private then :)

DSs school streams for maths and literacy. IIRC, its three groups and you can be in a different group for each. Streaming is essential IMO, managed properly, Asa children will either sink or be bored if given middle of the road work across the board.

Oh, the children at DSs school are well aware of what the tables/groupings mean. It is, in fact, blindingly obvious if you look at the work they're being given.

Nothing wrong with the lists in themselves. This showed me how, in this small area, it was impossible for some children to catch others in terms of extension work and exposure to meatier stuff going forward. It was a system that was biased against a late developer.

Also, did it matter? I am interested in why some children are apparently creamed off and accelerated when there are others who might be just as capable who may be 'lost' in an inflexible system? Who are effectively, unconsciously being moulded as dim, bright and advanced.

Be interested to hear back from Helen as to how her classroom works and other teachers. And I didn't want to talk about ability groups this time :).

SoupDragon, agree as long as it is frequently reviewed and flexible. I am told the sort of situation I describe is alive and well in the private sector too, believe it or not :).

Lets face facts, schools and academia really suits about 20 to 30% of the kids attending, the rest manage and around 10% just don't and fall out of the system or are the problem kids.

The most important thing for me is that any child doesn't feel like they can't cope or can't do what's being asked because I think self esteem (or lack of it) plays THE biggest part in how anyone copes with life/work etc. later. 'Banding' has to be a good idea therefore.

At 5/6 the difference between some of the kids, even down to the month they were born still, is enormous.

Don't worry, concentrate on healthy, confident, happy kids because that's what they are, kids.

Agree at 5/6 month of birth plays a big part but not factored into KS1 'scores' as such. I don't think that all teachers take it into account as much as we'd hope. That said I know Y1 teachers who do, and even highlight the youngest and oldest in the year in the register to remind them on a daily basis.

Thanks, Helen. V interesting and helpful to read. I am interested in the thinking behind 'ability' and agree with much of what Claig has to say about it on here. I think it isn't as fixed as some believe it is. Didn't want to bang on about it again, as I've done that before :).

I am not worried about the spellings as such. If our system was more fluid I'd have worried less and hopefully next year will be different. Interesting to see that around half your class moved between the groups in a year.

I am very curious to see how this issue is handled in other primary schools and I enjoyed reading your post, thanks.

Any system created and or designed to label/categorize people will always be fundamentally unfair because we are not all equal. As much as I'd love things to be fair, they just aren't, not in school and not in life.

Slightly off topic but I remember not being picked for the choir at 7 because I was stood on the end of a line singing and the bloody teacher didn't come down as far as me. Oh the injustice! Reported back to wise mother who said ''if you think you are good enough and want to have another go I will come to the teacher with you and you can sing again'' I didn't, coz I was crap and I knew it. Moral of the story being all you can do is try and even up the odds in yours or your kids favour x

All schools will not be teaching exactly the same things in the same way. When your child goes to secondary school, they will no doubt be in classes with children who have had very different experiences of school. Some will have been at schools where children were expected to work a higher level, or a lower leve, or in a different way.

So really it is up to you as a parent to decide what you think your child should know before they get to secondary school. The school will teach part of that, and you will teach the rest (as it seems you are doing). Over the course of Primary school, your child will experience teachers that are right for your child and teachers that are not. In the years when your child isn't getting the best out of school, you pick up the slack.

So what really matters in terms of ability tables is if your child's position in the class is having an impact on how they feel about school and education. The maths and literacy you can sort out yourself.

Sorry if that sounds patronising or simplistic. I just wish someone had said it to me when I had a 5 year old so that I stopped worrying about things and upsetting myself over little things during the Primary years. It is tough with Summer born children, but you have to believe in them regardless of what some much older child is doing.

Really sound advice Milly, thanks.

Wise words MillyR.

OP have you read Outliers?

There are loose "ability" tables in my DC's class.

It is a mixed yr 1&2 class (it is a small school) with about 15 children in each year.

Each year is split into 3 tables. One table spends a couple of hours a week with another teacher having extra help. One table works at the average level. One table works above average in most subjects and has extension work if necessary.

This is probably simplifying the system, but that is essentially how it works.

I think the main point of it is to break the class into manageable groups. There is a TA as well as a teacher. They don't spent all of their time sat at the tables, they have some carpet time and some time in the outdoor classroom.

Some children still get bored and some still struggle, but IMO it does make things a bit fairer accross the class.

I have 5 or 6 tables in my Y2 class all mixed ability non permanent groupings

can I flounce and ask again what the problem is with spelling/word lists (or indeed ask what they actually are if I've got it wrong!) :o

When the Literacy Strategy (no longer around) was introduced 199? it contained a list of 45 reception words and a further 100ish words for Y1 & Y2 which some schools sent home for children to learn /memorise the reception list had words like "at" and "mum"

The review of reading replaced these lists with a short list of "tricky" words to be introduced and a longer list of high frequency words

In my DC's school they don't have spelling lists/tests until Yr 3. They then have them every week.

(meant to add that they can still spell before that, they just don't get "tests")

oh I see thanks. I guess I was getting them confused with spellings for older kids where they'd do, say, night, fight, sight, fright etc.

Our school splits the ability groups into 4 groups for reception, red, blue green and yellow.

DD has stayed in the red group for the whole year, however there is a LOT of movement.

A couple of kids started in yellow, apparently they go on the nurseries recommendation, then moved up to red through the year.

It is a very flexible system, as it should be.

Spelling lists are ineffective in teaching children to remember spellings - they can get 10/10 in the test but the next week can rarely remember any of the words.

We have had a similar set up to you Cortina. Ability groups in which only a couple of kids were moved around throughout the whole year - if the furniture allowed it of course . The teacher we had was pretty poor, lazy and really should have been put out to pasture a long time ago, her inability is widely recognised by parents and we begrudgingly accepted it as a low point in our child's education and plugged the gaps where we could.