Advice without judgement please =(

[Nikkz]

Hi guys.
It's been a while since I have been on here, but I find I need support without the worry of judgement. All of my family and friends have children younger than mine so they cannot relate.

I have a 12-year-old girl and she is in year 8. I have spoke to her many times about the rules whilst on her phone. One of my main rules is that she cannot join group chats, after a bully's cousin got her number last year and was contacting her, she deleted the message and broke my trust, she ended up self harming due to bullying and hiding it from me and her dad (still married and parenting together on a day-to-day basis).

She has a CAHMS assessment in about 2 weeks which we will be attending regarding the above issue.

Yesterday she kept having an attitude with me and seemed 'off', so I decided to check her phone a bit earlier than normal (I normally check weekly and rules are she cannot delete messages). I found a group chat with over 430 people in that her friend had added her into and messages from numbers not saved in her phone and not in the UK. These people messaging her were stating they were 13-15 with names like 'Jim' etc, I found they were from Africa and Nigeria and following the email address of one shows a 50 something year old man who was trying to get her to send photos (thank God she hadn't sent any photos or sensitive information). I reported and blocked these people and have cancelled her contract and taken her phone.

Part of me is so angry with her that she broke my trust again and didn't listen and part of me is worried she is going to self harm again. I have told her she cannot travel to school with her friends this week, me or her dad will take and collect her or she can travel with her brother as he has a phone so I know she will be safe. But my question is.

Where would you go from here? what punishment(s) would you impose and how would you move forward trying to build trust and teach responsibility?.

Sorry for the long thread, I am just so worried and angry, i'm dissapointed and don't want to push these feelings onto her but I am also frustrated as I have warned her of the dangers and set out clear rules, explaining why these rules were in place and the consequences and dangers of ignoring them but it has apparently fell on death ears.

Luckily I check the phone 1-2 times a week but I feel like a terrible mother and don't know how to move forward.
Nikkz x

I wouldn't impose any more punishments than what you've already imposed. If she's self-harming then what she needs is help, not punishment.

I'm a mother of teens. Taking away the phone is the punishment. Now focus on talking to her, really talking. Take her out somewhere away from the house.

Build a relationship where she isn't afraid to talk to you (not saying you don't already have this) have a heart to heart. Go easy on the discipline for now and focus on talking and opening up. Explain how dangerous some group chats are and show her how you worked out there was 50 year old men in it so she can see for herself. Educate her about online grooming and show her you love her and are just protecting her. With my 15 year old I have to maintain a balance of being a mother and a friend, so my daughter isn't afraid to tell me things but also knows I'm serious.

Teens are hard but you are just protecting her, the online world is a scary place x

I think checking a 12 year olds phone is a bit extreme to be honest. I have never checked any of my children’s phones, the youngest is 18 and nothing terrible has ever happened, they are entitled to privacy.

For context I am definitely not someone who is a relaxed chilled out parent. I knew where my children were 24 hours a day, they were not allowed to go to sleepovers until they were 13/14 and even then only when I knew the parents. They would be dropped off and collected at school/sports/activities.

I did speak to them all about not sending photos/personal information and I am confident if anything had worried them they would have told me.

Group chats are a normal part of growing up. There will be group chats for all sorts of things, sports, parties, days out. Sometimes there will be people that she does not personally know on them. Banning her from group chats and checking her phone is likely to cause more issues than it will stop.

Long term I’d think about getting her a different phone number with restrictions on what apps she can use. Is it Whatsapp with the group messages? Or texting? If you have parental controls you can stop certain apps being used or restrict time on them. Alternatively give her an unsmart phone so she can’t join WhatsApp or group texts but she’s still safe to travel to school on her own. Group texts (rather than WhatsApp) are a nightmare because if someone else adds you, you can’t leave unless they remove you (found this with DD).

You are restricting instead of educating.

She cannot learn to manage risk online if she is never allowed to face risk. Instead of banning her from group chats (which is unreasonable for the vast majority of secondary students), teach her how yo recognise unsafe or uncomfortable encounters online. And what to do when she encounters these.

Self harm at this age, in the vast majority of cases, is a non-verbal 'notice that something is up' sign. Basic levels of SH are unlikely to meet CAMHS threshold in the three LAs I have worked. Consider what the non-verbal communicationis saying. Does she not have the emotional literacy to describe her feelings? Might she feel unheard or invalidated when she does? Could it be self esteem related? Developing her own confidence with the responsibilities described above may help with this.

Continuing to check her phone is vital. But done as a tool yo know what you need to educate her on. Not to punish.

I work with sexual offending, this is foolish.

Talk to her about grooming and how clever and sly some people are. Also, try to encourage some hobbies where she’ll meet real life friends.

I think checking a 12 year olds phone is a bit extreme to be honest

Really? I checked my daughters when she was 12, it was her first phone and she was very much new to everything. The OP stated a man in his 50s was encouraging her to send photos - now that's extreme.

Swap to a brick phone. No more WhatsApp and group chats. No more social media.

She's too young to manage this herself, she has proven that to you so that's the natural consequence.

Your daughter needs support not punishment...

She is self-harming and sounds very vulnerable and need to be seen by a child psychologist.

Being vulnerable makes her an easy target for bullies and dodgy scammers & sexual offenders.

Frankly the focus should not be on you being 'angry' that she 'broke your trust'.

She is a child who needs help. It is not about you.

I am really staggered that you think your daughter would need 'further punishment' in this scenario rather than some urgent help,

Have you shown her that she was speaking to old men? I’d try to come from a place of concern and protection rather than punishment. You’ve done the right thing taking the phone away.

I couldn’t disagree more with the pp who said don’t check the phone. It was only by checking that you discovered your daughter’s lack of judgment.

Are you serious? Not checking a 12 year olds phone is madness. They are vulnerable at that young age - I’d bet that soon under 14’s won’t be allowed them and certainly not at school etc

Id say teaching them to navigate life - busses, trains, talking to shop keepers, appropriate interactions WITHOUT a phone stands them in better stead. So making her walk with someone with a phone so she’s safe seems counter intuitive. She’s in more danger from the phone than the walk.

Funnily enough, I work in criminal justice, my children were educated. I didn’t need to infringe their privacy. They knew how to manage risk, we had a very open relationship.

I think your being a bit harsh since her friend added her to the chat. You've said nothing to suggest your dd asked to be in it, or is an active participant. I'd remove her from the chat and block all the unknown numbers, and then have a discussion about which group chats are safe and which are unsafe. Teach her to see the red flags. A group chat to discuss a school project is ok, or related to specific hobbies is ok. Not all group chats are bad. Just keep monitoring as you were, but otherwise I would relax a little.
The more "rules" you have in place, the more your dd will hide from you tbh. If you want her to be safe, you are better being approachable and unjudgemental so she knows she can talk to you if there is something wrong, not worry about if she tells you she is going to be punished because it broke one of your "rules".

12 year olds don't know how to manage risk, that you work in the industry worries me

With the best will in the world EVERY parent thinks that …. right up until the point they check their kid’s phone!

Fwiw, I have raised 3 teens and I have never checked their phones. I prefer to keep conversations open instead and just talk about the dangers instead (such as discussing the Huw Edward's case and making sure photos aren't automatically downloaded on to phones etc).
Never had an issue and have 3 well rounded young adults.

You think checking a 12 year old's phone is extreme? Wow. It's a bloody good job @Nikkz did, otherwise who knows what position her daughter might have ended up in!
You can educate your children, school can educate the children but that doesn't stop young people (or anyone) from not seeing the risks or thinking things through.

Hi everyone.
Thanks for the replies and input. I have read the replies and considered all the advice thanks so much. I think I was more frustrated and worried because I have spoke to her about the dangers before and it has fell on deaf ears.

A few points to confirm to avoid confusion and verify a few things. I usually skim who is messaging and it it's her usual friends I don't just sit here opening and reading her messages I respect that she has a right to privacy but also that if I feel something isn't right I will check which she knew. I only opened the group chat titled "add everyone in your contacts' which had over 400 people in which concerned me enough to open and the other messages I checked as I saw they were not numbers in her phone which was also a red flag.

I understand that it seems she is not having her privacy but I am trying to balance out privacy versus safety. I am not here to argue with anyone but don't agree with it being extreme to check her phone. We are a very open family.

The no phone is only temporary until I can get another sim some time during the week, not permanently I should have made that a bit clearer in my original post, my bad.

I do not think it's about me, this is about my daughter but I am also allowed to consider my own feelings about the situation also and how it affects others. The self harm was a few months ago and I have been checking in with her regular and have her support with family and also in school whilst we waited for an appointment. She has a good support network with friends, family and school mental health.

Thanks again everyone.

I'm the mother of a 12 year old in year 8 who self harms so I very much know how hard it is and how you feel.

Is the CAHMs assessment the only help so far? My DD receives counselling from her school and has previously from a local service for over 11s called the lowdown. Both are very helpful and recommended.

I believe you should check their phone. My daughter knows that part of the privilege of having a phone is that I can check it if I want to. I'll admit I no longer do this very often but I'm glad I did. Despite what other posters say, I educated the shit out of her regarding grooming, messages, images, contact with strangers and giving out personal details on public platforms. I don't work in criminal justice but I've been heavily involved in grooming and paedophiles through the court system. Imagine my surprise when someone is messaging her saying he needs someone to talk to because he thinks he's gay and can't talk to anyone in real life. A scenario I didn't think I needed to cover but she thinks she is helping him. It quickly led to erotic novel level messages about gay sex and she never told me. Now I have no doubt that in the moment, she'd get in a van if they said they had puppies. It's not about privacy, it's about safety.

OP, talk to her. She's young she doesn't get it. It's not amount punishment (but I would be either taking her phone off her or setting up some strict rules and safety settings) but getting to know why she thought this was ok.

Hi, she did have an initial assessment after the bullying with school, her head of year, me, her dad, the school nurse and the schools mental health worker and spoke about it, she said she wasn't depressed and it was a one off and convinced us but I kept on for an appointment to double check everything was OK and settled.

So sorry your daughter was put in this position. I have educated her so much but she still didn't listen. Could I private message you at all?

Of course you can!

This.
she is too young to manage this herself and needs you to help navigate this. We had a similar situation with a slightly younger child. We did limit access to the internet (struggled to get grandparents to buy in but that’s another story)
You are doing the best you can to keep her safe. CAMHS in our experience were absolutely terrible, nearly gave the child more ideas on how to hide self harm. The GP was great, she and I made a safety plan together. I’m not unfamiliar with this, I work in Emergency Care and often make plans with strangers, so it was very new to me to make one for our own child.

she is much calmer this year. I was very open and honest about what we needed to do to keep her safe and why.
I wish you the best. It’s a frightening time.

Taking away the phone is punishment enough, I personally think that you or dad taking her to high school is going to leave her open to more bullying, let her get transport with her friends, they need he independence and to feel like she fits in you are just leaving her wide open for other children to take the piss.

Thanks everyone